Cont: Texas bans abortion. Part 2

[Aridas]

I guess if people are performing illegal abortions, we must hold the GOP solely responsible...not the scumbags performing the procedures.

Typical. If a woman goes to the ER after a coat hanger abortion, someone will of course place the blame squarely on a conservative lawmaker.

"Why are you not accusing the man of the house for not taking personal responsibility for protecting his family when that company dumped toxic waste into their backyard after successfully convincing the lawmakers to make it legal to do so? Clearly, the man of the house must be held accountable for all harm done, not the company or the lawmakers!"

 

[Stacyhs]

Women wouldn't have to resort to a 'hanger' abortion if they could get it safely and legally at a health clinic/hospital by a doctor. And when that is made illegal by GOP lawmakers, just who the hell should we blame? The health clinic?

When it's the damn GOP passing laws making abortion impossible to get in many states, then they are the ones responsible for the resulting back alley abortions that will inevitably happen just like they did before R v W. Making abortion illegal didn't stop women from getting them then and it won't stop them now. And more women are going to die.

It's not a difficult concept to understand. At least, not for most people.

 

[johnny karate]

I guess if people are performing illegal abortions, we must hold the GOP solely responsible...not the scumbags performing the procedures.

Typical. If a woman goes to the ER after a coat hanger abortion, someone will of course place the blame squarely on a conservative lawmaker.

Performing a previously legal medical procedure suddenly rendered illegal by regressive conservative lawmakers = Scumbag.

Forcing a raped 11 year-old to give birth = Acceptable.

Quite the moral compass you've got there, Warp12.

 

[Warp12]

Making abortion illegal didn't stop women from getting them then and it won't stop them now. And more women are going to die.

Well I guess that would be a risk they are willing to take, in order to illegally end another life.

Choices have consequences.

 

[Stacyhs]

Of course, there are people who consider a bunch of non-sentient cells an equally valuable 'life' as a woman's. I find that very warped thinking, especially coming from men who will never, ever have to face making that decision.

 

[johnny karate]

Well I guess that would be a risk they are willing to take, in order to illegally end another life.

Choices have consequences.

Well, unless it's a choice that authoritarian conservatives are making on behalf of raped 11 year-olds they are forcing to give birth (something that you find acceptable).

That raped 11 year-old is on her own because conservatives don't actually care about her or what happens to her, or actually value human life.

 

[sackett]

Reactionaries can only destroy. Is it surprising that they display glee at the destruction they commit? What other reward do they get out of life?

 

[Warp12]

Of course, there are people who consider a bunch of non-sentient cells an equally valuable 'life' as a woman's. I find that very warped thinking, especially coming from men who will never, ever have to face making that decision.

Some people essentially consider the unborn to be "parasites". I prefer to think of them as developing humans. I do think the 6-week cap in TX is too early. But I am not going to endorse back alley abortions because of it.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, unless it's a choice that authoritarian conservatives are making on behalf of raped 11 year-olds they are forcing to give birth (something that you find acceptable).

That raped 11 year-old is on her own because conservatives don't actually care about her or what happens to her, or actually value human life.

And meanwhile, if that raped 11 year old just happens the be the daughter of a politician, or a rich political donor, or a CEO/CFO/COO of a large corporation, an abortion will be readily available on the QT should they choose it.

The reality is that in Texas, and in other states that have these draconian abortion laws, the restrictions apply only to poor people.

 

[johnny karate]

Some people essentially consider the unborn to be "parasites". I prefer to think of them as developing humans.

"Essentially" doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Here's how you could have made your argument a little more honest by removing the qualifier and sticking with things people actually said:

"Some people consider forcing raped 11 year-olds to give birth to be reprehensible. I prefer to think that it is acceptable."

 

[Stacyhs]

Some people essentially consider the unborn to be "parasites". I prefer to think of them as developing humans. I do think the 6-week cap in TX is too early. But I am not going to endorse back alley abortions because of it.

Again? You really need to get a new record, Warp. That old song and dance got old a long time ago. Ho hum.

No one is 'endorsing' back alley abortions, but they are a direct and inevitable consequence of the GOP's campaign to make abortion illegal or, at the very least, extremely hard to get under very restrictive limitations. Choices have consequences...remember?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Some people essentially consider the unborn to be "parasites". I prefer to think of them as developing humans.

I can understand that this is important to you. I personally think that the considerations of the pregnant woman in question are more important than yours or mine.

I do think the 6-week cap in TX is too early. But I am not going to endorse back alley abortions because of it.

Strawman. No one "endorses" back alley abortions. But when you put people's backs against the wall where they feel they have no recourse, bad things happen. Helping expectant mothers works a lot better than classifying them all as potential felons and arresting them.

ETA: I see Stacy made my point for me.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Again? You really need to get a new record, Warp. That old song and dance got old a long time ago. Ho hum.

No one is 'endorsing' back alley abortions, but they are a direct and inevitable consequence of the GOP's campaign to make abortion illegal or, at the very least, extremely hard to get under very restrictive limitations. Choices have consequences...remember?

This will inevitably lead back to the tired "they need to take RESPONSIBILITY for getting pregnant!" while ignoring that the people who ignore them at any other time suddenly have a passionate desire to regulate their uterus, without responsibility.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's Pro-lifers, second only to Religious Apologist in how long its been since they actually came up with a new argument.

 

[bruto]

Well I guess that would be a risk they are willing to take, in order to illegally end another life.

Choices have consequences.

Yes, but even for your viewpoint, you're going to have to figure out a tradeoff. If the law does not measurably diminish the number of fetal deaths, it's a complete and inexcusable bust. If it does, you have to decide on some percentage - how many dead mothers are worth how many fetuses. I don't think that's an easy calculation for anyone to make, but I think it is fraught with problems, especially since it also, peripherally, influences other values, such as autonomy and freedom and quality of life, which, while they may not offset a death, are not nothing at all.

 

[bruto]

This will inevitably lead back to the tired "they need to take RESPONSIBILITY for getting pregnant!" while ignoring that the people who ignore them at any other time suddenly have a passionate desire to regulate their uterus, without responsibility.

Warp12 dodges that bullet (or perhaps dances about it), by supporting birth control and sex education. The fact that most of those who are pushing for anti abortion laws are also those pushing for limits to birth control and sex education is theoretically irrelevant as long as they are theoretically separable. It's just an unfortunate circumstance that they so seldom are in reality.

 

[Aridas]

Warp12 dodges that bullet (or perhaps dances about it), by supporting birth control and sex education. The fact that most of those who are pushing for anti abortion laws are also those pushing for limits to birth control and sex education is theoretically irrelevant as long as they are theoretically separable. It's just an unfortunate circumstance that they so seldom are in reality.

He dodges it in part, at least, on that front. Similarly, though, it looks like he's invoking a tortured and warped version of responsibility. Certainly, personal responsibility is an important and fundamental form of responsibility. It's just that the right, especially, loves to try to invoke it in ways that negate the personal responsibility of those who actively put others into harm's way for personal/political/financial gain and focus nigh solely on the responsibility of those who are then in harm's way to protect themselves, however unreasonable the excuses may be.

 

[smartcooky]

He dodges it in part, at least, on that front. Similarly, though, it looks like he's invoking a tortured and warped version of responsibility. Certainly, personal responsibility is an important and fundamental form of responsibility. It's just that the right, especially, loves to try to invoke it in ways that negate the personal responsibility of those who actively put others into harm's way for gain and focus nigh solely on the responsibility of those who are then in harm's way.

Some years ago I had a discussion with at least one pro-lifer person who was a guest on talkback radio (an American as it happens who lives here in NZ). She believes that ANY kind of birth control is a sin against God's will, and is murder of a potential human being. Sexual intercourse, she said, is part of God's plan and its solely for the purpose of procreation. After getting into a heated discussion with her on this topic, I asked her straight out if she ever says no to her husband. After she displayed the appropriate amount of poutrage that I would even ask her such a question, I pointed out that she started this by even being on the show as a guest in the first place to promulgate her opinion - that this is what she has sown and she is now expected to reap it. Ultimately she did answer the question - yes she does sometimes say no to her husband. I immediately pointed out that she is then guilty of murder of the potential human being that might have been conceived if she had said yes.

The poor thing didn't really have an answer to that!

 

[Stacyhs]

Some years ago I had a discussion with at least one pro-lifer person who was a guest on talkback radio (an American as it happens who lives here in NZ). She believes that ANY kind of birth control is a sin against God's will, and is murder of a potential human being. Sexual intercourse, she said, is part of God's plan and its solely for the purpose of procreation. After getting into a heated discussion with her on this topic, I asked her straight out if she ever says no to her husband. After she displayed the appropriate amount of poutrage that I would even ask her such a question, I pointed out that she started this by even being on the show as a guest in the first place to promulgate her opinion - that this is what she has sown and she is now expected to reap it. Ultimately she did answer the question - yes she does sometimes say no to her husband. I immediately pointed out that she is then guilty of murder of the potential human being that might have been conceived if she had said yes.

The poor thing didn't really have an answer to that!

These people who think sex is only for procreation floor me. Also, using her logic, a 10 or 11 year old who begins ovulating is committing murder if she doesn't have sex because that is a potential life she denied with her selfish and ungodly behavior.

 

[smartcooky]

These people who think sex is only for procreation floor me. Also, using her logic, a 10 or 11 year old who begins ovulating is committing murder if she doesn't have sex because that is a potential life she denied with her selfish and ungodly behavior.

100% Stacy, and that might go some way toward explaining the behaviour of certain sections of Religious Conservatism, i.e , those who are OK with the idea of child brides - such as some Tennessee Republicans!