Cont: Texas bans abortion. Part 2

[Bob001]

So which one of the hospital staff who reported her gets her $10,000 now? Do they each get $10K or do the darlings have to share the $10K?

Texas is a freaking time machine back to the 1950's. They can keep it. You couldn't pay me to live there.

As I understand it, the 10K (or more) is what you can claim if you win a civil suit against anybody who has anything to do with an abortion. It sounds like somebody who would call the cops is a nutjob prolifer.

 

[Bob001]

When commentators without legal standing argue that they think there's racial bias, certain commentators here cry "guilty unless proven innocent," but get ready, because I think we're going to see a new wave of it in real life.

She'll be charged with an illegal abortion or murder or whatever, and because the core event (the still birth) is not in question, do you think the prosecution will have to prove she intended it, or will she have to satisfy a jury that she did not?

Press reports say she has been charged with murder. It's hard to believe that it will go to trial. But it's Texas. I guess it could.

 

[Stacyhs]

As I understand it, the 10K (or more) is what you can claim if you win a civil suit against anybody who has anything to do with an abortion. It sounds like somebody who would call the cops is a nutjob prolifer.

You're right.

"But that law only has civil consequences, not criminal. Therefore, it’s unclear which law authorities were relying on to charge Herrera." (WAPO)

As the state does not enforce the abortion law, how could the woman be charged with murder?

 

[Lurch]

Texas is leading the charge into a nightmarish dystopia. To mangle a quip of Churchill's: "If Texas invaded Hell I should at least provide a favorable reference to the Devil."

 

[Bikewer]

NPR’s Fresh Air this last Thursday interviewed a woman who’s been documenting a nationwide network of folks who are working to facilitate abortions in the face of increased legal restrictions.
They are training people in the use of the “aspiration” technique, which (according to the segment) is fairly easy to learn and quite safe.
Also in obtaining and distributing the various drugs…

States are seemingly hell-bent on this, my own state, Missouri, is trying to make it illegal to travel to another state where abortion services are legal. That’s pretty blatantly illegal…. But they press on with this nonsense.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

What is illegal and what they can enforce is up to the courts. Any decision not in their favor can be appealed up to the Supremes. How do you think Beer Bro, Handmaiden, and Trophy Husband are going to rule these days?

 

[bruto]

What is illegal and what they can enforce is up to the courts. Any decision not in their favor can be appealed up to the Supremes. How do you think Beer Bro, Handmaiden, and Trophy Husband are going to rule these days?

I think even they might balk at suggesting that it's constitutional to forbid interstate travel!

 

[Warp12]

We still don't know any details of what happened, do we?

We should probably save our outrage until then, right?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I think even they might balk at suggesting that it's constitutional to forbid interstate travel!

At this point I'm tired of falling back on "surely even they would not go that far," only to watch them immediately go even farther out of spite.

 

[cosmicaug]

At this point I'm tired of falling back on "surely even they would not go that far," only to watch them immediately go even farther out of spite.

Most of these stories show confusion & do not even reveal what actually happened. I think the confusion lies with the fact that what appears to have happened does not seem to actually be punishable as murder (if at all) in any reasonable reading of Texas law.

However, the fact that the DA is apparently moving to dismiss makes it seem like someone might have gotten ahead of the law & confused what they wished the law to say (and where it is being taken faster than many want to believe) with what the law actually says right now.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-abortion-murder-greg-abbott-b2055031.html

But even with dismissal, it still "sends a message".

Key paragraph (found in a few reports but not most) is:

Frontera’s founder and chair Rockie Gonzalez told Texas Public Radio that “what is alleged is that she was in the hospital and had a miscarriage and divulged some information to hospital staff, who then reported her to the police.”

However, it also needs to be noted that following that story to the source one cannot find that quote in it (it also notes not revisions & the oldest version I found on the Wayback Machine also does not include that quote). It is unclear where that came from.

 

[cosmicaug]

So which one of the hospital staff who reported her gets her $10,000 now? Do they each get $10K or do the darlings have to share the $10K?

Texas is a freaking time machine back to the 1950's. They can keep it. You couldn't pay me to live there.

If this version is correct (inducing her own abortion by herself and getting reported by hospital staff), I can't see how this is not gross medical malpractice on the part of the providers. Specifically whoever did this if it was an individual decision should never work in healthcare again; or if it was an institutional decision heads should roll there.

Going to the hospital for medical treatment and having this outcome should be criminal. This will have consequences. People will die when they begin to get the idea that you need to avoid hospitals lest you be charged with murder.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

This will have consequences. People will die when they begin to get the idea that you need to avoid hospitals lest you be charged with murder.

Yes, that's the idea.

 

[bruto]

Texas legislators are less interested in preventing murder than directing it.

 

[Aridas]

Yes, that's the idea.

Rather, it's collateral damage from the idea. The idea is to whip up political support from the base by giving them red meat. Any collateral damage, of course, can just be blamed on the victims, liberals, Democrats, or whatever convenient scapegoat is handy and weaponized, but that's more a side benefit than the main idea.

 

[Aridas]

We still don't know any details of what happened, do we?

We should probably save our outrage until then, right?

Well, we do have current announcements. Such as...

Woman jailed for 'self-induced abortion' should never have been charged, Texas prosecutor says

A Texas district attorney announced on Sunday that a 26-year-old woman charged with murder for a "self-induced abortion" should never have been indicted and prosecutors will be filing a motion to dismiss the indictment on Monday. Lizelle Herrera was arrested on Thursday by the Starr County Sheriff’s Office and held on a $500,000 bond after the sheriff's office reported that she “intentionally and knowingly cause the death of an individual by self-induced abortion.” She was held in the Starr County jail in Rio Grande City, which is on the U.S.-Mexico border, NPR reported. Now it seems District Attorney Gocha Allen Ramirez is attempting to correct the wrong by asserting in a Facebook post that “Herrera cannot and should not be prosecuted for the allegation against her.”

“Although with this dismissal Ms. Herrera will not face prosecution for this incident, it is clear to me that the events leading up to this indictment have taken a toll on Ms. Herrera and her family,” Ramirez wrote in the post. “To ignore this fact would be shortsighted. The issues surrounding this matter are clearly contentious, however based on Texas law and the facts presented, it is not a criminal matter.”

So, by the look of it, it's just yet another example of harassing and attempting to criminally prosecute abortion without actual legal basis to do so.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Rather, it's collateral damage from the idea. The idea is to whip up political support from the base by giving them red meat. Any collateral damage, of course, can just be blamed on the victims, liberals, Democrats, or whatever convenient scapegoat is handy and weaponized, but that's more a side benefit than the main idea.

I disagree. I think the collateral damage is the goal. The cruelty is the point.

 

[Aridas]

I disagree. I think the collateral damage is the goal. The cruelty is the point.

Then we're in some disagreement. I don't think the collateral damage is the actual goal, after all. I'm not adverse to counting it as a desirable side effect for them, though. Either way, this is pretty much just splitting hairs at this point. What they're doing is harmful all around and should be treated as such, regardless of priorities.

 

[bruto]

Then we're in some disagreement. I don't think the collateral damage is the actual goal, after all. I'm not adverse to counting it as a desirable side effect for them, though. Either way, this is pretty much just splitting hairs at this point. What they're doing is harmful all around and should be treated as such, regardless of priorities.

I think you can see it as both, depending on whether you're looking at the presumed long term goal or the reasoning for how you achieve it and why. It is true, for example, that beating a child for misbehavior might be said to have as its proximate goal preventing the misbehavior, but the choice of how that is achieved has as its immediate goal tears and submission. If there is more than one way to achieve an overall goal, the collateral damage should, I think, be counted as part of that goal.

 

[Stacyhs]

I wonder if any HIPAA laws were violated when (if) a staff member reported this to the police.

Lizelle Herrera probably has a good lawsuit against one or more people over this.

 

[Bob001]

I wonder if any HIPAA laws were violated when (if) a staff member reported this to the police.

Lizelle Herrera probably has a good lawsuit against one or more people over this.

Well, health care workers, as mandatory reporters, are required to report certain kinds of illnesses and injuries: indications of child abuse, for example, or gunshot wounds or some contagious diseases. If some nurse thinks abortion is murder, I guess she felt justified in calling the cops. But the cops should have said "No crime here" and moved on. As the woman was charged and locked up, I suspect she has a false arrest suit brewing against them.