Terrorist Attack in Spain - Over 60 dead

[Bluegill]

Maybe not, but in this case they've condemned the attacks, so they're not just ducking responsibility but actively distancing themselves from this. This could just be cowardice, but it might be worth noting that synchronised, near-simultaneous attacks are an Al-Qaeda trademark, so perhaps they're being truthful (although why they should consider it acceptable to kill a few people at a time but condemn the killing of dozens, I cannot imagine).

There's nothing to say that other people can't do sync'd attacks as well, of course, but it will be interesting to see what the investigation can turn up.

I guess I can understand ETA's political logic for such a statement, but how can you logically justify it morally? I mean, if they want to kill one person to make a point, and they think that killing ten makes an even stronger point, then why wouldn't killing a thousand be greater still? Is their moral view, "Yeah, we're justified in killing hundreds of people over a couple of decades, but it's not fair for us to do it in one day"?

 

[zenith-nadir]

I agree that the motivation is there for ETA, timing-wise, but I'd love to know how the Minister is so certain, so quickly. Especially considering that the attack is so disproportionately large compared to past ETA efforts.

Recent ETA attacks:

Sept. 14 2003 shooting of two policemen in Lagran...March 2002, Spanish authorities defused an ETA bomb planted at the stock exchange in Bilbao....2002 a bomb exploded outside the home of a local politician, and a town councillor was assassinated...In November 2001, ETA killed a judge and two police officers in the Basque region.... October 2001, ETA set off car bombs in Vitoria, the capital of the Basque region, and in Madrid...


But the ETA has never perpetrated a coordinated multi-target attack like Al Queda does, in fact the ETA has killed between 800 and 1000 people in 35 years so todays attack isn't their typical modus operandi.

 

[Reginald]

I agree that the motivation is there for ETA, timing-wise, but I'd love to know how the Minister is so certain, so quickly. Especially considering that the attack is so disproportionately large compared to past ETA efforts.

Indeed, we will have to wait for some evidence to surface, given that no organisation has claimed responsibility.

 

[Hutch]

What's that jon? Feel free to share.

To pre-empt jon, at 5:23EST he wrote

I give this thread 2 hours before it turns into a Israel/Palestine slanging match

At 6:16EST (53 minutes), you wrote trying to enter Israel/Palestine into the equation.

Therefore IMHO jon was right on target. And in respect to him it will be the last thing I say on the above.

 

[Fendetestas]

The Prime Minister, José María Aznar, has just appeared in public and has also said they have no doubt ETA is the responsible for this. The explosives are of the kind the band usually uses.

Also, I want to say that there have been a lot of arrests and police successes in general lately. Last Sunday (29 feb.) a van with 500 kg of explosives was intercepted, now it seems it could have been some kind of decoy.

 

[zenith-nadir]

To pre-empt jon, at 5:23EST he wrote At 6:16EST (53 minutes), you wrote trying to enter Israel/Palestine into the equation. Therefore IMHO jon was right on target. And in respect to him it will be the last thing I say on the above.

Fair enough. But I wasn't "slagging" palestinians and I didn't enter the Israel/Palestine issue into the equation. In fact my post had one single word in it that refered to the middle east. I just asked why terrorism is 'unjustified' when it does not involve Israelis.

Pretty harmless question and I am amazed that some have blown it way out of proportion while others call it "a stab at derailing the thread".

 

[Cleopatra]

Well, I'm not saying I'm certain ETA is behind of this, but I'm quite convinced. First of all, the Minister of Interior has just said in a public appearance that they have "no doubt" ETA is behind this. Furthermore, it's logical for ETA to do this (and I believe there'll be more in the following days) just before the elections.

I think that ETA is more picky in its hits and hasn't resorted to this sort of blind violence so far. Also, they must be idiots to do a thing like that that it would wipe away any sympthizers they might have had. It's totally stupid to hit before the elections and ETA is not that stupid.

Also,I don't think that z-n's comparison with Hamas is totally irrelevant.

edited to add: What I will say might appear silly but don't take it the wrong way. I hope that it's ETA and not Al Queda.

 

[Fendetestas]

I think that ETA is more picky in its hits and hasn't resorted to this sort of blind violence so far. Also, they must be idiots to do a thing like that that it would wipe away any sympthizers they might have had. It's totally stupid to hit before the elections and ETA is not that stupid.

Also,I don't think that z-n's comparison with Hamas is totally irrelevant.

edited to add: What I will say might appear silly but don't take it the wrong way. I hope that it's ETA and not Al Queda.

They're not so picky, and I'm not saying they have done anything close to this, but they have "resorted to this sort of blind violence" Their biggest bombing so far killed 25 people I think in a supermarket in Barcelona, with a bomb in the underground parking in 1987. Sounds pretty blind to me. And they have done really stupid things, the number of sympathizers has plummeted in the past years because of them.

I agree that, sholud this be their fault, it would be the stupidest thing they have ever done.

 

[richardm]

Also,I don't think that z-n's comparison with Hamas is totally irrelevant.

Maybe not, but it would be nice if he'd bunged it in a new thread instead of bringing it up in this one. Saying that it was a "Harmless Question" is pretty disingenuous, since he must be aware of the effect such statements usually have in threads.

Meanwhile, apparently ETA members were arrested last year and bombs destined for Madrid trains were intercepted, so there is a track record there.

According to the BBC there were total of 10 explosions today, with another 3 bombs being defused by the police. That is quite a considerable amount of effort (although I suppose it only involves thirteen people with backpacks).

 

[zenith-nadir]

Maybe not, but it would be nice if he'd bunged it in a new thread instead of bringing it up in this one. Saying that it was a "Harmless Question" is pretty disingenuous, since he must be aware of the effect such statements usually have in threads.

How can a question on a message board be considered "harmful"? How can asking a question "have an negative effect on a thread"? Are people that afraid that they are threatened by questions? My goodness, GROW A SPINE.

Isn't asking questions the way people discuss things? Or are certain questions VERBOTEN by the JREF elite?


p.s. And for the record I never said the word Hamas.

 

[richardm]

How can a question on a message board be considered "harmful"? How can asking a question "have an negative effect on a thread"? Are people that afraid that they are threatened by questions? My goodness, GROW A SPINE.

Isn't asking questions the way people discuss things? Or are certain questions VERBOTEN by the JREF elite?


p.s. And for the record I never said the word Hamas.

It is harmful to the continuing discussion of the events in Madrid in this thread. No questions are verboten (well, actually, some are, come to think of it, but yours isn't). If you want to ask the question, why not ask it in a different thread? I notice you still haven't done that.

 

[The Don]

How can a question on a message board be considered "harmful"? How can asking a question "have an negative effect on a thread"? Are people that afraid that they are threatened by questions? My goodness, GROW A SPINE.

Isn't asking questions the way people discuss things? Or are certain questions VERBOTEN by the JREF elite?

For my part I'm heartly sick of the number of threads which sink into a bickering match regarding the situation in Palestine. IMO your question was a good one but posting it here (rather than as a separate thread) could serve to derail this thread and turn it into one of those bickering matches.

Now, about this JREF elite rubbish. Of course everyone is allowed to post whatever they like. It's like a conversation, you're able to say whatever you like it's just that some people exercise some control over what they say and where they say them as a means of keeping a conversation to the subject in hand or more specifically to stop a conversation being hijacked.


I think that ETA (if indeed it is they who are responsible) may have shot themselves in the foot with this one. Even though there's a hard core of zealots who will not be turned from their path, ETA IMO will lose whatever popular support they had.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It is harmful to the continuing discussion of the events in Madrid in this thread. No questions are verboten (well, actually, some are, come to think of it, but yours isn't). If you want to ask the question, why not ask it in a different thread? I notice you still haven't done that.

Posts are not harmful. Anyone can post what they want yet nothing is ever "harmed". They are just ones and zeros in cyberspace that appear as text on our monitors. You may not agree with a post, but it harms nothing.

My original post had to do with the ETA and why terrorism is unjustifiable when it takes place outside of Israel. Wow, what a war crime, how dare I say that in this thread !

I recommend you live up to your ideals and ask Jon_in_london why he said "I give this thread 2 hours before it turn into an Isreal/Palestine slanging match." That has nothing to do with "Madrid" either richardm.

Now, about this JREF elite rubbish. Of course everyone is allowed to post whatever they like. It's like a conversation, you're able to say whatever you like it's just that some people exercise some control over what they say and where they say them as a means of keeping a conversation to the subject in hand or more specifically to stop a conversation being hijacked.

No, actually eveyone is not allowed to post what they want as evidenced by this conversation.

 

[The Don]

No, actually eveyone is not allowed to post what they want as evidenced by this conversation.

Why, where is your evidence of you being unable to post ?

You have been able to post (as is your right) and a number of people have complained to you, not a moderator, suggesting that what you posted though very interesting should be considered off-topic (as is their right).

Persumably time will tell as to which view is more popular

 

[Fendetestas]

I just wanted to say this:

 

[richardm]

Sorry, all.

This is my last word on the near-derailment of this thread

 

[Demigorgon]

Somehow this has to be GWB's fault.

 

[CFLarsen]

This atrocity just gets worse..
I just can't imagine how you guys in Madrid feel at the moment. Perhaps some of the New York members have some idea.

Yes.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

No, actually eveyone is not allowed to post what they want as evidenced by this conversation.

No one is stopping you posting anything. Several people have requested or made comments that your post may derail this thread into another discussion. That is not the same as not being "allowed" to post whatever you want.

As the thread starter I will request that if you believe there is a discussion to be had about any points to do with Israel or Palestine then you start your own thread.

I would like this thread as much as possible to be about discussing the terrorist attack in Spain that has claimed I think now over 170 lives.


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This is certainly the worse ever terrorist attack in an EU county in living memory and if there is a link to ETA I sincerely hope it will provide the impetus to find a peaceful solution to the issues of separation. Sadly however my view is that the people who are willing to undertake such attacks are not interested in any reasonable compromise.

 

[Peskanov]

There is a lot of confusion here; the minister has said that ETA is responsible, but the president has been more vague in his speech, using simply the word "terrorist".

ETA has lost recently his political branch (HB/EH), which now operates outside legality and therefore will not be present in the upcommings elections. They also lost his diary, "egin". Both entities were illegalized recently, and maybe this is a vendetta in response.
In the other hand, ETA rarely attacks the population. They made that mistake years ago and lost a big part of their followers.
Ex-HB leaders have made a public announcement, you can found it in this page:

http://www.gara.net
(try babelfish, spanish-english)

They say ETA would never do an attack like this. The minister, Acebes, replied saying this a propagandist manouvre, and ETA is responsible of the attack.

BTW, "gara" is the page of the diary wich fills the place of "egin".

The counting now says 180 dead, 1000 hurt.