Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

[Craig B]

I don't see how you can possibly get that from what I wrote. You are off again, tilting at windmills.



The point is that some non-terrorists will be sympathizers and some will be appalled moderates. Acknowledging that both types exist would seem to be a necessity for a successful counter-terror strategy.

If you are saying that the moderates are "appalled" then your point is well made. But in your previous post you put the sympathisers in the same "non terrorist" category as the moderates, so your understanding of the moderates' state of mind was not clearly expressed. In this context, the word "moderate" is in any case very ambiguous.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Wrong direction. Civil law is the only good faith arbiter, and sole solution, in a multi-faith (and no faith) society. Only civil law may prevail as the law of the land. Any other option means there has been an effective establishment of religion, an asymmetry in the standing of dogmas.

The problem is that most people are only willing to extend this to OTHER religions and not their own.

Also often religions can operate within civil law - such as what we see with these so-called Sharia courts in the UK which are simply independent arbitration.

Even if you legislate against them there is still little chance of changing the behaviour if it's culturally engrained. They'll just be carried out more surreptitiously.

And why on Earth should we be singling out one specific religion or practice for such attention anyway and yet still allowing it for others?

 

[Craig B]

According to the BBC, ISIS has now claimed responsibility for the Berlin atrocity.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I will.

Seriously though, what is it you think "happens after that" which is so scary?

Idiot racists in charge of society is scary. Idiot racists in charge of anything is scary. Even a keyboard.

 

[Giz]

Would someone/anyone who supports an independent united Ireland be an IRA-terrorist sympathiser by your definition?

That depends... During the Troubles, I would have asked: do they vote Sein Fein (supporting the IRA) or SDLP (rejecting violence)?

Generally people's motivations and positions don't fall so neatly into little categories.

True on a trivial level and yet there's obviously enough overlap that as a practical matter groupings can be helpful (i.e. the NAACP, or SNP... full of individuals and yet we can make some generalizations about their goals).

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That depends... During the Troubles, I would have asked: do they vote Sein Fein (supporting the IRA) or SDLP (rejecting violence)?

So anybody that supports the goals of ISIS while not actively supporting the organisation would not be a sympathiser in your book then? That's quite a fair swathe of people who come under the not-terrorist heading. Which is a good thing. But I'm just checking for clarity.

True on a trivial level and yet there's obviously enough overlap that as a practical matter groupings can be helpful (i.e. the NAACP, or SNP... full of individuals and yet we can make some generalizations about their goals).

And yet we see that these things fail once you start to generalise beyond the specific stated aims of the groups. Thus we hear the garbage often trotted out that SNP supporters are anti-English. Then it becomes accepted. Then it becomes an argument that some 'moderates' aren't anti-English they just have anti-English sympathies or whatever.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Letting people like me do what's necessary is the only way Germany is recognizable (and anything other than a **** hole) in 50 years' time.

These moderate Muslims still breed like rabbits, still give birth to terrorists, give ideological reinforcement by believing the same basic BS, sympathize with them, and if Germans ever take up arms to expel any number of Muslims, even if they try to do something less than all of them, it will be ALL of them who rapidly get on the same page and everyone's tribal loyalties on both sides will be activated. Moderates disappear in crisis times. This is why you don't make idiotic moves like going"full diversity" in easy times of plenty. It's short sighted.

 

[Craig B]

These moderate Muslims still breed like rabbits, still give birth to terrorists.

I thought that was Irish Catholics. Same sort of thing I suppose. However "breed like rabbits, give birth to terrorists" conjures up the image of "terrorist rabbits". And terrorist rabbits with moderate parents too. The mind boggles.

 

[Giz]

So anybody that supports the goals of ISIS while not actively supporting the organisation would not be a sympathiser in your book then? That's quite a fair swathe of people who come under the not-terrorist heading. Which is a good thing. But I'm just checking for clarity.

Hard to support the goals of ISIS without supporting violence. Those unbelievers aren't just going to behead themselves you know!

Why are you so desperate to avoid saying that folks who sympathize with ISIS are part of the problem, even if they do not engage in violence themselves.

And yet we see that these things fail once you start to generalise beyond the specific stated aims of the groups. Thus we hear the garbage often trotted out that SNP supporters are anti-English. Then it becomes accepted. Then it becomes an argument that some 'moderates' aren't anti-English they just have anti-English sympathies or whatever.

Dude, SNP supporters are regarded as anti-english because they make generalized posts against the "English" and "Westminster" while crying that they are under attack. (Projection, I think it's called).

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Letting people like me

Americans? I doubt they want Americans there. They are (and give birth to) murderers, rapists, drug dealers and idiot racists.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Hard to support the goals of ISIS without supporting violence. Those unbelievers aren't just going to behead themselves you know!

Hard to support the goals of Israel without supporting violence. Hard to support the goals of America without promoting violence. Hard to support the goals of the IRA without supporting violence.

Why are you so desperate to avoid saying that folks who sympathize with ISIS are part of the problem, even if they do not engage in violence themselves.

Because if you want to actually have a sensible conversation it helps to go beyond the knee-jerk and actually understand the complexities. I sympathise with Muslim extremists in the broadest sense of the word. I can see that Muslims have some legitimate grudges, have been dealt a crappy hand, and foster a righteous anger. But I disagree entirely with other parts of what they want and the way they go about pursuing their goals. Just as I did with the IRA.

When white folk become extremists within Britain First, the EDL or whatever people are falling over themselves to explain it and legitimise it. Not brand them and everyone that looks like them or goes to the same church a terrorist.

Dude, SNP supporters are regarded as anti-english because they make generalized posts against the "English" and "Westminster" while crying that they are under attack. (Projection, I think it's called).

They are branded that by ignoramuses who know nothing about them and merely want to exert their supposed superiority. And they are simply wrong. And if they are that wrong about such a simple issue that is right on their doorstep and about people who have been brought up in the same culture next door to them I certainly wouldn't trust their judgement to pontificate on Muslims or the Middle East.

 

[Belz...]

The parallel with the Nice attack are obvious.

That was my first thought when I saw the news of this.

 

[Belz...]

I thought that was Irish Catholics.

I thought it was Jews. The "other" they focus on changes all the time.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I used to go down to the Kurfurstendam (on the U-bahn, three bus stops and a short walk to the station) in West Berlin when I was a kid. We lived in West Berlin. That's familiar territory for me.

Sadness today in Darthland, feeling it for the folks in Deutschland.

 

[Loss Leader]

According to the BBC, ISIS has now claimed responsibility for the Berlin atrocity.

I think they're claiming that they "inspired" the attack.

 

[McHrozni]

I will.

Seriously though, what is it you think "happens after that" which is so scary?

Given their gross incompetence, the economy will suffer, which they will try to cover up using populist methods of inciting ethnic hatred. We could count ourselves lucky if we only end up with a few pogroms and riots.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

And why on Earth should we be singling out one specific religion or practice for such attention anyway and yet still allowing it for others?

Are there religious arbitration courts for other religions in UK too?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

According to the BBC, ISIS has now claimed responsibility for the Berlin atrocity.

Big surprise there. The target and means of the attack was what they called on their followers to carry out.

I have a question for all of these "it's not Islam" folks: what was the motive, according to you?

You can use Nice attack if you're unwilling to debate this one, it was identical enough for the argument to work. If you're willing to say it wasn't Islam, I expect you to have a different motive, which you can back up with evidence. Well, do you?

McHrozni

 

[Noztradamus]

many right wing folk do this accentuation :
(1) a muslim terrorist
But the real accentuation should be like this :
(2) a muslim terrorist

Well, we could examine the motives of such terrorists. When we do we see the accenuation (1) is the one we need to talk about.

McHrozni

Many would prefer a religion of peace / ................... /terrorist (best to keep those concepts separate)

 

[McHrozni]

I can see that Muslims have some legitimate grudges, have been dealt a crappy hand, and foster a righteous anger.

Can you please list these legitimate grudges and present evidence these alleged grudges are a significant contributor to Islamic terrorism?

McHrozni