TERFs crash London Pride

No, but I'm not the one making pronouncements that they were convinced by adults that they needed SRS. That was your assertion, so the onus is on you to provide evidence to support it. You've been here long enough to know how this works, "that which can be asserted without evidence, can be refuted without evidence".

I don't think "convinced by adults" is exactly right.

I'm just saying a 12 year old didn't come up the idea of getting SRS completely 100% on their own.

There been an increase in 12 year olds seeking SR medical treatment, and something caused that increase. You agree with that, yes?
 
All other things being equal, I'd be a lot more comfortable sharing a cell with him than with someone with an "organic" "natural born" penis.

That's just me. Maybe others would disagree.

I think you are being honest and I don't think you are thinking that way because you are a terrible person or transphobic.

Society and culture is as ever changing, and we can all occasionally feel less than comfortable with the changes. The problem of course is when we say because of our discomfort with changes means changes shouldn't happen. And the worse problem is when we refuse to admit that it is nothing bar our own discomfort that makes us rile against those changes.

As part of the discussion in this and another thread I've read a lot more about the current changes in regards to transfolk "rights" and I've had to consider my "instinctive" discomfort with some thoughts. For instance I've seen some very (to me) attractive transmen, some have had "top and bottom" surgery some not, I've challenged myself as to whether (as if they would be interested in me - buy hey fantasy is great) I could "date" them.
 
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I don't think "convinced by adults" is exactly right.

I'm just saying a 12 year old didn't come up the idea of getting SRS completely 100% on their own.

There been an increase in 12 year olds seeking SR medical treatment, and something caused that increase. You agree with that, yes?

The internet. Seriously. I remember looking up words at junior school in the encyclopedia and dictionary to find out what I was, there was no other information. Actually there was one very fortuitous for me TV movie that came out when I was a youngster - I consider myself so lucky that I was as a young kid able to watch the "The Naked Civil Servant" when it was shown on telly. Whilst I didn't identify with the title character I did with his homosexuality, for me the end of the film had a profound effect, it showed people like me. (This was pre video recorders - you either saw it or missed it.)

Today a young kid can find out so much more, never mind that nearly every "kind" of kid are shown to be people in media (from books to mainstream TV) that they have access to.


I recall from my youth people wondering why and where all these "queers" where coming from, "we never had them in my day".
 
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I don't think "convinced by adults" is exactly right.

I'm just saying a 12 year old didn't come up the idea of getting SRS completely 100% on their own.

There been an increase in 12 year olds seeking SR medical treatment, and something caused that increase. You agree with that, yes?

In my experience, the vast majority of gays and lesbians were perfectly aware that they were "different" at 12, if not younger. Twenty years ago, a lot less of them would have admitted it at that age as would now.
 
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The internet. Seriously. I remember looking up words at junior school in the encyclopedia and dictionary to find out what I was, there was no other information. Actually there was one very fortuitous for me TV movie that came out when I was a youngster - I consider myself so lucky that I was as a young kid able to watch the "The Naked Civil Servant" when it was shown on telly. Whilst I didn't identify with the title character I did with his homosexuality, for me the end of the film had a profound effect, it showed people like me. (This was pre video recorders - you either saw it or missed it.)

Today a young kid can find out so much more, never mind that nearly every "kind" of kid are shown to be people in media (from books to mainstream TV) that they have access to.


I recall from my youth people wondering why and where all these "queers" where coming from, "we never had them in my day".

Right. I was thinking that probably played a large part, as well.

I just worry that the information they're getting from the internet at 12 might not be balanced, informing them of "persisters" vs "desisters", and that socially detransitioning is a real thing, etc and so on.

It's such an amazingly sensitive and complex topic, and it seems like everyone is ruthlessly and religiously promoting some "side".

To kind of come full circle, JihadJane brought it up saying there's ideology "telling vulnerable young boys that they have been born in the wrong body and will require medical intervention and, later, physical mutilation (e.g. castration)".

Remove the emotion-laden adjectives, and you're left with the claim that there are people/is information "out there" informing transgender youths that 1) they were born in the wrong body 2) they need medical medical intervention and later will need surgery.
I don't think the claim is fundamentally outlandish.
 
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In my experience, the vast majority of gays and lesbians were perfectly aware that they were "different" at 12, if not younger. Twenty years ago, a lot less of the,m would have admitted it at that age as would now.

Sure, but the "persister" vs" desister" aspect does not, to my knowledge, happen with homosexuality. It's basically unheard of for a gay/lesbian teen to turn 21 and just up and "realize they're actually straight", or somehow "become straight".
 
I don't think "convinced by adults" is exactly right.

I'm just saying a 12 year old didn't come up the idea of getting SRS completely 100% on their own.


Almost no one does, they need to be told that it exists and is an option, typically by other transgendered people, or by therapists. It's a pointless truism so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

There been an increase in 12 year olds seeking SR medical treatment, and something caused that increase. You agree with that, yes?


As a result of increased understanding and acceptance of transgendered people by both society and in particular their parents.

To turn that around, more gay people are getting married now than in the past, why do you think that is?
 
Almost no one does, they need to be told that it exists and is an option, typically by other transgendered people, or by therapists. It's a pointless truism so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

I was respoding to Mycroft's question here. I responded here.

To turn that around, more gay people are getting married now than in the past, why do you think that is?
I see what you mean and I don't disagree, but to be pedantic, gay people are getting legally married now because the law changed to allow them to, in the US, at least.
 
Apparently.

Also, the "friend" was male so I'm not sure what point JJ is trying to make. If "she" can kill one male friend then she must, at least, be capable of killing 2 to 3 female friends? Or is it more like a 1 to 1 ratio?
 
<snip>

Remove the emotion-laden adjectives, and you're left with the claim that there are people/is information "out there" informing transgender youths that 1) they were born in the wrong body 2) they need medical medical intervention and later will need surgery.
I don't think the claim is fundamentally outlandish.


I don't think you've quite eliminated all the emotion laden stuff there.

Gender therapy for children is not taken lightly, nor is it forced on them. Years of counseling are involved. They aren't "informed", they are asked. And then they are asked some more.

They aren't being told they "need" anything, only that the options exist.

The idea that anything is forced on them is part of the anti-trans propaganda.
 
I was respoding to Mycroft's question here. I responded here.


I see what you mean and I don't disagree, but to be pedantic, gay people are getting legally married now because the law changed to allow them to, in the US, at least.


Right. Because an option they didn't have before is now available to them.

Gender reassignment therapy is an option that trans children did not have before.

Even if it existed, if they were unaware that it did the result is the same.
 
I don't think you've quite eliminated all the emotion laden stuff there.

Gender therapy for children is not taken lightly, nor is it forced on them. Years of counseling are involved. They aren't "informed", they are asked. And then they are asked some more.

They aren't being told they "need" anything, only that the options exist.

The idea that anything is forced on them is part of the anti-trans propaganda.

I don't think it's being forced on them, but I'm also not sure all the info they're (or anyone else, for that matter) encountering online is necessarily balanced and accurate. Are you sure nobody on the internet or anywhere else is sending the message that trandgender people need SR surgery and meds?

I get the sense that a lot of people are operating under the assumption that being transgender is just like being gay, straight, or bisexual, where if that's how you self-identify at 13 or 16, that's it - you're almost definitely going to be that or some variant of it for life.

But what's true for sexual orientation is not necessarily true for gender identity.
 
You don't think allowing people who went through male puberty to compete in "women's sports" essentially destroys women's sports?

Yep that is why it is important to have trans men compete with women, as seen in texas wrestling.

Does letting cis women who fail various tests at womanhood compete in women's sports destroy them or not? How strict does the biological definition of woman need to be for sports?
 
If males in prison are at risk of being raped by other male inmates, I don't think it's outlandish to conclude that women would be at risk of being raped by male inmates, too.

:con2:

Which is why it is important to punish trans women by being the optimal rape target in mens prisons.
 
I don't think it's being forced on them, but I'm also not sure all the info they're (or anyone else, for that matter) encountering online is necessarily balanced and accurate. Are you sure nobody on the internet or anywhere else is sending the message that trandgender people need SR surgery and meds?


And you still continue to persist in this nonsense. This situation existed long before the Internet, it was just quietly suppressed by an intolerant society.

Why does it matter if anyone is "sending the message"? Do you think that these young adolescents can just pop out to the local clinic and get hormone therapy and surgery any time they feel like it?

ANY transperson, regardless of age, who is even remotely contemplating SRS is required to get literal years of therapy before they are even eligible to be considered for SRS. That is the reason for puberty-delaying hormone treatment for preteen adolescents who believe that they may be trans. To delay irreversible pubertal development while the individual undergoes therapy to determine if they will be proceeding on the path to transitioning. If they come to the realization that they are not trans, but something else, then the treatment can be stopped, and puberty proceed as normal.

I get the sense that a lot of people are operating under the assumption that being transgender is just like being gay, straight, or bisexual, where if that's how you self-identify at 13 or 16, that's it - you're almost definitely going to be that or some variant of it for life.


That is a straw man if your own creation; but the actual science is not far off of that position. Studies indicate that gender identity, like sexual preference, is fixed at a very young age; but that complex cultural factors can affect awareness of of that identity. This is particularly true for older generations, who did not have available to them the sort of information and supportive communities and organizations that are available now.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla....s-13-to-17-identify-as-transgender-in-the-us/
http://www.kuow.org/post/when-do-kids-know-they-re-transgender-younger-youd-think
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/

An excerpt from that last article:
There is no shortage of information available for parents trying to navigate this difficult terrain. If you read the bible of medical and psychiatric care for transgender people—the Standards of Care issued by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (Wpath)—you’ll find an 11-page section called “Assessment and Treatment of Children and Adolescents With Gender Dysphoria.” It states that while some teenagers should go on hormones, that decision should be made with deliberation: “Before any physical interventions are considered for adolescents, extensive exploration of psychological, family, and social issues should be undertaken.” The American Psychological Association’s guidelines sound a similar note, explaining the benefits of hormones but also noting that “adolescents can become intensely focused on their immediate desires.” It goes on: “This intense focus on immediate needs may create challenges in assuring that adolescents are cognitively and emotionally able to make life-altering decisions.”


As a personal anecdote, I was aware from a very young age that I was "different', not quite the same as my peers; but I lacked any sort of referents for identifying and understanding what that difference was. I grew up in an evangelical Christian family and culture, and wasn't aware that transpeople even existed, let alone that I could have been one of them. Hell, I even the idea of homosexuality was little more than a mysterious boogeyman until I was well into my teens, and I started to gain access to information from sources outside my family and the religious community we were ensconced in. I practically lived in the local library, and that was how I discovered that there were sexualities and gender-identities other than the cisgendered heterosexuality enforced by the culture I grew up in. Had I had that sort of information earlier, I'm certain I would have understood what I was much earlier.

Now, with the advent of the Internet and its almost-unfettered access to information on nearly everything, it's much easier for younger people to acquire that information and develop those referents aside from cultural pressures, and understand better who they are.
 
That is the reason for puberty-delaying hormone treatment for preteen adolescents who believe that they may be trans. To delay irreversible pubertal development while the individual undergoes therapy to determine if they will be proceeding on the path to transitioning. If they come to the realization that they are not trans, but something else, then the treatment can be stopped, and puberty proceed as normal.

Does it "delay" puberty, or does it partially forever block it, and some of the bone mass, growth, and sexual organ changes/development will thus never "catch back up"?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00870.x

Another potential risk of blocking pubertal
development relates to the development of bone
mass and growth, both typical events of hormonal
puberty, and of brain development

Finally, for the MtFs a non-normal pubertal
phallic growth, the genital tissue available for vaginoplasty
may be less than optimal.

Where are you getting the idea from that meds can just be stopped and then "puberty proceed as normal"?


Studies indicate that gender identity, like sexual preference, is fixed at a very young age...

Did you see the study about how 64% of transkids are "desisters"?

https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Steensma-2013_desistance-rates.pdf

Between 2000 and 2008, 225 children (144 boys, 81
girls) were consecutively referred to the clinic. From
this sample, 127 adolescents were selected who were
15 years of age or older during the 4-year period of
follow-up between 2008 and 2012. Of these adolescents,
47 adolescents (37%, 23 boys, 24 girls) were identified
as persisters
. They reapplied to the clinic in adolescence,
requested medical treatment, were diagnosed
again with GID, and considered eligible for treatment
(puberty suppression with GnRH analogues first, crosssex
hormone treatment after the age of 16, and surgery
after 18 (details of treatment in de Vries and CohenKettenis7
). As the Amsterdam clinic is the only gender
identity service in the Netherlands where psychological
and medical treatment is offered to adolescents with
GD, we assumed that for the 80 adolescents (56 boys
and 24 girls), who did not return to the clinic, that their
GD had desisted
, and that they no longer had a desire
for gender reassignment
 
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