TERFs crash London Pride

kellyb said:
I'm sorry you think I'm selling fear. I'm very much a trans-inclusive feminist, but I also think this is a legitimate issue.

How many female inmates raped by male inmates would be acceptable to you? If it would only be, say, under 100 a year, would it be okay?
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You have no stats to give some idea of the actual extent of this issue you think is legitimate, yet it's the only thing you're pushing for.

Trans people are subject to far greater violence, rapes, and general mis-treatment than women. Yet you are again twisting it so that women, in general, are in such a great threat from a transwoman that there must be some sort of segregation.

It comes across as you're wanting to take the gold in the victim olympics or something.




kellyb said:
Where did I call transwomen men?
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Nice dodge.

You're not calling them men, you're just treating them as men. And violent rapists as well and wanting legislation or complete segregation for a marginalized group of human beings.
 
pharphis said:
This probably comes off as pedantic but when did that become a right? Where is it named a right? Some kind of right to privacy?

I've never really considered it a right or seen anyone else do so before, that I can remember.
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Are you seriously asking if there are laws governing incarceration?

Discourse in 2018.
 
pharphis said:
Sure. I just think it should be a relatively minor concern in the topic of rape, here, and not sufficient reason itself to distinguish between how serious rape is in prison
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What definition of more serious are you using in which "has additional negative traits " does not fit?
 
The Norseman said:
Nice dodge.

You're not calling them men, you're just treating them as men.
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I'm going to say shifting the accusation from "identifying them as men" to "treating them as men" is what's dodgy. It's pretty classic goalpost moving.

Acknowledging that biological males and biological females are biologically different is not bigotry. When it comes to sports and prison policy, I think biological sex should be taken into consideration.
 
sadhatter said:
Are you seriously asking if there are laws governing incarceration?

Discourse in 2018.
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No I'm not. I'm asking what the "hard-won rights" were that were being referenced, and whether or not they are actually "rights".
sadhatter said:
What definition of more serious are you using in which "has additional negative traits " does not fit?
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Sorry, you're right. I should have said "significantly more serious" but I understand that is subjective as well and can't be very well-defined.
 
pharphis said:
No I'm not. I'm asking what the "hard-won rights" were that were being referenced, and whether or not they are actually "rights".
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I didn't use the phrase hard-won rights, just to be clear. The "right" for women to not be jailed with men is kind of just "law" that developed over time in various ways, as far as I know.
 
I know. I believe it was Rolfe who used that phrase.

That's also my understanding of how things are
 
kellyb said:
I didn't use the phrase hard-won rights, just to be clear. The "right" for women to not be jailed with men is kind of just "law" that developed over time in various ways, as far as I know.
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If women are hugely at risk of being raped by anyone who is biologically male in a prison situation, then should there be seperate prisons for transwomen?
 
kellyb said:
Where did I call transwomen men?
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Perhaps I read it wrong, but here:

The Norseman said:
With a single trans person in a woman's prison full of women ... why would you assume that this transperson is much more likely to victimize another inmate by rape?
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kellyb said:
Are you asking why a male would be more likely to rape a female than another female would be?
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Aren't you calling this hypothetical trans-person, who would be a transwoman in a woman's prison, a man?

And again here:

kellyb said:
I didn't use the phrase hard-won rights, just to be clear. The "right" for women to not be jailed with men is kind of just "law" that developed over time in various ways, as far as I know.
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If the "men" in that sentence doesn't refer to trans-women, who does it refer to?
 
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Mycroft said:
Perhaps I read it wrong, but here:





Aren't you calling this hypothetical trans-person, who would be a transwoman in a woman's prison, a man?

And again here:



If the "men" in that sentence doesn't refer to trans-women, who does it refer to?
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In the first quote, I use the word "male" to refer to biological sex (the hypothetical person is a transwoman, a woman who is biologically male), and in the second, I'm referring to the historical record of the laws regarding prisons and gender and sex segregation, where "men's prison" and "women's prison" are what they've been called, with sex and gender presumed to be functionally synonymous.
 
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Porpoise of Life said:
If women are hugely at risk of being raped by anyone who is biologically male in a prison situation, then should there be seperate prisons for transwomen?
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I don't think "hugely at risk of being raped by anyone who is male" is right, but otherwise, a separate prison sounds like it might be the least-bad solution.
 
kellyb said:
If lesbians raping other women in prison is a problem in need of addressing, that's kind of its own issue, but I'm not seeing evidence that it's as common as male inmates raping other males.

There's not a lot of data to work with, though, that I can find.
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I was replying to your post stating:

kellyb said:
You don't think housing biological males in with females in prison puts those females at greater risk of physical harm?
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You said "physical harm," not rape.
 
kellyb said:
I don't know of any studies which have addressed the issue of what all the 12 year olds seeking sex reassignment meds and surgery have encountered which might have encouraged them to seek such medical reassignment so young.

Are you aware of any?
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No, but I'm not the one making pronouncements that they were convinced by adults that they needed SRS. That was your assertion, so the onus is on you to provide evidence to support it. You've been here long enough to know how this works, "that which can be asserted without evidence, can be refuted without evidence".
 
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