Tennessee Proposed Amendment 1 (No Abortion)

[superfreddy]

No, not for fun, but because it's socially expected to say bigoted stuff, just like it's socially expected to say polite stuff. The claim that their kindness is superficial implies that it's not motivated by any deep feelings, only by social expectations. Well, why isn't the same possible regarding their bigotry? Perhaps they'll say all sorts of offensive stuff, but when actually dealing with a person who is the subject of such bigotry, they might not actually be interested in doing anything mean to them.

Is that the case? Beats me, I don't live in Tennessee. But it seems at least like a possibility, given the information offered so far.

I haven't thought about it that way. I've seen both cases of people saying bigoted stuff and also people being bigoted in a more subdued way.

I was told not long ago that I was the "right kind" on Latino, whatever that means. Maybe I'm not brown enough. I supposed that can be counted as "superficial bigotry", but if they actually believe what they say, it's a manifestation of the way they are.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. It is bigotry and if they're doing it just to conform to social expectations, they are not only bigots but imbeciles as well.

 

[Ziggurat]

I haven't thought about it that way. I've seen both cases of people saying bigoted stuff and also people being bigoted in a more subdued way.

I was told not long ago that I was the "right kind" on Latino, whatever that means. Maybe I'm not brown enough.

Or maybe you're just a Latino that they've gotten to know personally. Maybe this is how they try to deal with their cognitive dissonance: they aren't ready to let go of their prejudice in general, but they can't really apply it to you (at least not fully), in person, so they seek some form of reconciliation in their heads, and this is the excuse that they come up with.

I supposed that can be counted as "superficial bigotry", but if they actually believe what they say, it's a manifestation of the way they are.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. It is bigotry and if they're doing it just to conform to social expectations, they are not only bigots but imbeciles as well.

I don't disagree that they're bigoted and stupid. I'm not contesting that. But I don't agree that it doesn't really matter. I think it does matter, because it changes the scale of the problem. If you only have these attitudes in the abstract, but upon meeting and interacting with a person from whatever group you're bigoted against you find that you don't actually hate them, then the consequences are different and, I would suggest, much less severe than if you continued to hate them even after a personal encounter.

Going back to people telling you that you're the "right kind" of Latino, I would find that offensive, but isn't that reaction still preferable to one in which they still considered you the "wrong kind", believing that there cannot be a "right kind"?

 

[The Greater Fool]

Or maybe you're just a Latino that they've gotten to know personally. Maybe this is how they try to deal with their cognitive dissonance: they aren't ready to let go of their prejudice in general, but they can't really apply it to you (at least not fully), in person, so they seek some form of reconciliation in their heads, and this is the excuse that they come up with.



I don't disagree that they're bigoted and stupid. I'm not contesting that. But I don't agree that it doesn't really matter. I think it does matter, because it changes the scale of the problem. If you only have these attitudes in the abstract, but upon meeting and interacting with a person from whatever group you're bigoted against you find that you don't actually hate them, then the consequences are different and, I would suggest, much less severe than if you continued to hate them even after a personal encounter.

Going back to people telling you that you're the "right kind" of Latino, I would find that offensive, but isn't that reaction still preferable to one in which they still considered you the "wrong kind", believing that there cannot be a "right kind"?

I'm not sure that a bigot saying you are "the right kind" is necessarily better than blatant bigotry. Personally, it's easier when the bigot flies their flag openly, than those that put on a pleasant face. Actually, I am sure: being told you are the "right kind" is not better, it means the bigot is hanging on to their bigotry, and are willing to tolerate you for the moment.

My spouse and I, being interracial, see and hear what bigots say when they think they are with "their kind" about "the wrong kind", and it's not pretty. Even more sickening is seeing the face bigots put on when in the company of "the wrong kind." Is it better than blatant bigotry? Sure, in much the same way that its better when a cannibal uses a fork.

More generally (not in direct response to anyone), I see and hear explanations on how the bigotry here is not that bad and understand the motivations. If I were raised here, if this were my "normal," I imagine I could see what appears to be everyone getting along, little name calling, desegregated companies.

This is not my "normal," and I don't see people getting along, I see them not interacting with each other more than necessary. In the desegregated companies, I see no minorities above first tier management, little social interactions between workers of different races. It's practiced separation.

The kind, friendly, accepting, public face of bigotry is a thin veil. The different treatment my spouse and I receive in professional settings is astounding. The hostility when we are together is palpable. The attitude change when someone has been dealing with us individually, then together, is like night and day.

Bigots do not kick and scream when they see something they don't like. Bigots know that to make a stink, or even notice, is not allowed. It's forgivable that people think that this is acceptance, or not caring. When bigots think they are in "safe" company, the truth comes out. It's disgusting.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not sure that a bigot saying you are "the right kind" is necessarily better than blatant bigotry. Personally, it's easier when the bigot flies their flag openly, than those that put on a pleasant face. Actually, I am sure: being told you are the "right kind" is not better, it means the bigot is hanging on to their bigotry, and are willing to tolerate you for the moment.

Isn't someone who is more blatant in their bigotry still hanging on to their bigotry? Why is it worse to be tolerated for the moment than to not be tolerated at all?

I get that it's simpler to know how to respond to an outright bigot, but I'm not following your logic here.

This is not my "normal," and I don't see people getting along, I see them not interacting with each other more than necessary. In the desegregated companies, I see no minorities above first tier management, little social interactions between workers of different races. It's practiced separation.

Then this is an argument that the bigotry is not merely superficial. And I can't dispute that, I have no personal experience of Tennessee on which to base any response.

But note that this has become a different argument. Saying that the bigotry is not merely superficial is different than saying that bigotry which is only superficial is just as bad as bigotry which is not merely superficial. In fact, you seem to be arguing about the reverse scenario: whether deep-seated bigotry is better or worse if it reveals itself superficially. And regardless of your position on that, I would argue that either of those scenarios is worse than bigotry which is merely superficial.

And lastly, just for clarity: I do not make any claims to knowledge about bigotry in Tennessee. I only raised the possibility of superficial-only bigotry as an idea to contemplate, not because I am asserting that this is the common form.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Isn't someone who is more blatant in their bigotry still hanging on to their bigotry? Why is it worse to be tolerated for the moment than to not be tolerated at all?

I get that it's simpler to know how to respond to an outright bigot, but I'm not following your logic here.

You're right. Largely, I expressed this point poorly.

True, it is easier when a bigot flies their flag. When the bigot appears to make an exception, or even displays honest friendship, it's disarming. In such cases, they can more easily stab you in the back. When one is used to bigotry being a non-issue, relearning that it is now almost always an issue is a hard lesson.

Then this is an argument that the bigotry is not merely superficial. And I can't dispute that, I have no personal experience of Tennessee on which to base any response.

But note that this has become a different argument. ...

Note that this part of your reply was to the part of my post prefaced with "More generally (not in direct response to anyone)," so not changing the argument, just addressing a different aspect of the larger argument.

At any rate...

... Saying that the bigotry is not merely superficial is different than saying that bigotry which is only superficial is just as bad as bigotry which is not merely superficial. In fact, you seem to be arguing about the reverse scenario: whether deep-seated bigotry is better or worse if it reveals itself superficially. And regardless of your position on that, I would argue that either of those scenarios is worse than bigotry which is merely superficial.

This idea of superficial bigotry is nonsensical, raised as some sort of counter-point to superficial courtesy or kindness.

Superficial bigotry, if such a thing can be said to exist, I take to be someone just going along to fit in with bigots. Pretending to be a bigot to fit in would be nearly as bad, as it lends open support to bigotry.

Really, from my view of the situation, its simply not worthwhile to guess at or worry about the motive behind apparent bigotry. Shows of bigotry deserve my contempt.

And lastly, just for clarity: I do not make any claims to knowledge about bigotry in Tennessee. I only raised the possibility of superficial-only bigotry as an idea to contemplate, not because I am asserting that this is the common form.

OK. As an idea for contemplation, it's right up there with the positive aspects of cancer when discussing its impact on the lives of sufferers.