Tennessee Proposed Amendment 1 (No Abortion)

Trakar said:
All it tells you is that this specific singular issue is almost never on the general ballot and voted upon by the people, and the few times it is, legal, medically sound abortion rights and practices are supported and passed, generally by large popular majorities.

Instead we have candidates who bundle issues and wink and nudge the various constituencies according to what they believe those particular constituencies want to hear and then vote on individual bills in a manner that minimizes competition from within their own parties.
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Perhaps.

The "normal people" I run into here have absolutely no issue with what is being done in their name. The "normal people" I run into also spout horribly racist nonsense, but that is a minority view nationally also. The "normal people" I run into want Christian prayer, and Christian instruction in school, which is a minority view nationally. The "normal people" here don't want gay people here, let alone gay marriage, but that is also does not seem to be the national view.

If there is a 'wink and nudge' it because "we have to say this for the liberals, but all us right thinking folk know the truth" is pervasive. They all know what is right because they hear it in church every Sunday, unlike the national perspective on such things.
 
The Greater Fool said:
Perhaps.

The "normal people" I run into here have absolutely no issue with what is being done in their name...
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I strongly suspect that most truly normal people have no idea what is being done in their name, precisely because most normal people pay little or no attention to politics or public policy in general until the week before elections once every four years and then they listen to the leaders they respect and vote the way they feel most of their family, friends and communities vote without ever really examining ballot measures or candidates.

(And, yes, unfortunately, most normal people in this country only vote in the national presidential elections, and don't recognize the names of local candidates or the parties and policies those candidates represent)

There is a big difference between this, however, and how people feel when they are actively engaged in thoughtful discussions about such issues, or at the least, this has been my experience with the normal people I run into throughout our nation. Perhaps, however, we tend to run into different types of normal people and this brings different biases to our perceptions.
 
Trakar said:
There is a big difference between this, however, and how people feel when they are actively engaged in thoughtful discussions about such issues, or at the least, this has been my experience with the normal people I run into throughout our nation. Perhaps, however, we tend to run into different types of normal people and this brings different biases to our perceptions.
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I must not be making myself clear. I have said in my travels for the first 54 years of my life, the experience you describe was my experience. I would have said I was exaggerating. In the last 2 years, in Tennessee, that experience means exactly nil. I understand the impulse, even the need to argue this, it is that abhorrent to what I thought was the USA. I am in a regressive hell.
 
The Greater Fool said:
I must not be making myself clear. I have said in my travels for the first 54 years of my life, the experience you describe was my experience. I would have said I was exaggerating. In the last 2 years, in Tennessee, that experience means exactly nil. I understand the impulse, even the need to argue this, it is that abhorrent to what I thought was the USA. I am in a regressive hell.
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I am not living in that area of the nation currently. I do have family and friends that I frequently and regularly communicate with and less frequently visit in rural Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Memphis, small town LA, AL and GA. Most of these, like myself, are religious (or at least nominally so, being mainstream Catholic, or in a few instances Baptist). I don't doubt your experiences, but I don't share them, and they are different from the experiences and perceptions I have.
 
Trakar said:
I am not living in that area of the nation currently. I do have family and friends that I frequently and regularly communicate with and less frequently visit in rural Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Memphis, small town LA, AL and GA. Most of these, like myself, are religious (or at least nominally so, being mainstream Catholic, or in a few instances Baptist). I don't doubt your experiences, but I don't share them, and they are different from the experiences and perceptions I have.
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I suspect the difference is my own culture shock.

My friends, family, and associates in the west were like me. A couple zealots, a couple nominal Christian, almost all disinterested in religion. Few relatives outside the state of CA. Interracial and same sex couples were not unusual. In my immediate family, 6 interracial couples, 1 gay interracial couple.

Here in TN, we have no family, acquaintances stay distant because of vast outlook differences (we don't go to their church, usually). Interracial couples are extremely rare, haven't seen a gay couple (based on PDA). I could hit a 9 iron in any direction and hit a church, a 3 Iron and I'd hit a couple Mega Churches.

The one time my wife and I drove through Oklahoma (in the early '90s) we couldn't figure out why people would stop and stare, until we remembered who we were, and where we were. The same happens here, now.

Perhaps being part of an interracial couple gives us a different perspective. We were used to not caring, because nobody cared. Here, a lot of people seem to care.

Again, different experiences, different perspectives, different perceptions, different opinions.

It may be I am simply not used to all this. I don't want to get used to this.
 
The Greater Fool said:
I suspect the difference is my own culture shock.

My friends, family, and associates in the west were like me. A couple zealots, a couple nominal Christian, almost all disinterested in religion. Few relatives outside the state of CA. Interracial and same sex couples were not unusual. In my immediate family, 6 interracial couples, 1 gay interracial couple.

Here in TN, we have no family, acquaintances stay distant because of vast outlook differences (we don't go to their church, usually). Interracial couples are extremely rare, haven't seen a gay couple (based on PDA). I could hit a 9 iron in any direction and hit a church, a 3 Iron and I'd hit a couple Mega Churches.

The one time my wife and I drove through Oklahoma (in the early '90s) we couldn't figure out why people would stop and stare, until we remembered who we were, and where we were. The same happens here, now.

Perhaps being part of an interracial couple gives us a different perspective. We were used to not caring, because nobody cared. Here, a lot of people seem to care.

Again, different experiences, different perspectives, different perceptions, different opinions.

It may be I am simply not used to all this. I don't want to get used to this.
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Fully understandable, but much of the distinction is superficial. The hard part is getting below that surface layer. It can be a problem when there is so much else going on to distract from the common interests and shared outlooks. It's a problem everywhere, it just seems moreso when you are the one coming from a place with drastically different background. For me the difference always seemed greatest when going from large urban areas to small towns or rural county living, each has their advantages and disadvantages but the distinctions of local custom and outlook are much more clearly defined.

Running around unshaven in a dirty t-shirt, barefooted or in flip-flops was fine, put on a pair of sandals with your clean jeans and a polo, you're suddenly a dirty hippy and so on. Plus there are a lot of things that these people say and do after midnight or at a private party with friends that they don't talk about casually during the day, deny and reject with their parents and children, and with righteous indignation, condemn in church on Sunday morning. This doesn't make them bad people, just people trying to fit in and get along in the only way they know how. Calling them out on their hypocrisy doesn't make either of your lives easier: set small examples and always be civil, polite and generous of your attention and time. Good people come to recognize and appreciate other good people regardless of any other differences that exist.
 
Trakar said:
Fully understandable, but much of the distinction is superficial. The hard part is getting below that surface layer.
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Well done. Total disregard for The Greater Fool's posts in two easy, short sentences.

If I may interpret his posts: It is NOT superficial. It is not hard to get below the surface layer and what you find is the same thing, namely, racism, intolerance and religious zealotry. Of course, not every single person falls into this trap, but as a general rule, it works most of the time. Ignorant bigots will do what ignorant bigots will do.

As an aside, since I'm usually nipping a Zig's heels, I think his arguments in this thread are well stated and correct.
 
SezMe said:
Well done. Total disregard for The Greater Fool's posts in two easy, short sentences.

If I may interpret his posts: It is NOT superficial. It is not hard to get below the surface layer and what you find is the same thing, namely, racism, intolerance and religious zealotry. Of course, not every single person falls into this trap, but as a general rule, it works most of the time. Ignorant bigots will do what ignorant bigots will do.

As an aside, since I'm usually nipping a Zig's heels, I think his arguments in this thread are well stated and correct.
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Thank you.

Trakar said:
<snipped courteously>
... Calling them out on their hypocrisy doesn't make either of your lives easier: set small examples and always be civil, polite and generous of your attention and time. Good people come to recognize and appreciate other good people regardless of any other differences that exist.
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Thanks for the Pro Tip. We are not stupid. We have never called out hypocrisy to people in real life. We get a unique opportunity of seeing what people say and do before they see the spouse. It's an education, to be sure.

We're also used to people telling us how good or bad people are, making excuses for ignorance and hatred. In real life, we smile and nod, they'll eventually stop and move on. Here, I don't have to smile and nod, as unlike real life, there will be no consequences of telling folks they're wrong. And they ARE very wrong.

A quote that applies, I heard it thrown at me when I was dating my now spouse: "A fool and his folly are not easily separated." How true.
 
The Greater Fool said:
Thank you.

We're also used to people telling us how good or bad people are, making excuses for ignorance and hatred. In real life, we smile and nod, they'll eventually stop and move on. Here, I don't have to smile and nod, as unlike real life, there will be no consequences of telling folks they're wrong. And they ARE very wrong.

A quote that applies, I heard it thrown at me when I was dating my now spouse: "A fool and his folly are not easily separated." How true.
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All true. I never said they were right (I did mention their obvious hypocrisy), merely that being wrong does not equate to "bad/evil," merely wrong.
 
Trakar said:
All true. I never said they were right (I did mention their obvious hypocrisy), merely that being wrong does not equate to "bad/evil," merely wrong.
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Where did I say they were evil?

In my world, being wrong is bad. In what world is wrong = good?
 
Solitaire said:
Looks like it passed with a 5% margin.
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Not surprised it passed, surprised the margin wasn't larger.

I live in TN, same area as TGF, and I have experienced the same issues he has described in this thread. I have never encountered so many bigots in my life.

But they are so superficially nice to you - southern charm they call it.
 
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superfreddy said:
Not surprised it passed, surprised the margin wasn't larger.

I live in TN, same area as TGF, and I have experienced the same issues he has described in this thread. I have never encountered so many bigots in my life.

But they are so superficially nice to you - southern charm they call it.
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How do you know that their bigotry isn't similarly superficial?
 
My wife, Karen, hails from Maryville, TN, south of Knoxville, and her son and his wife and their kids live in a Knoxville suburb. So, we're back and forth to Knoxville regularly.

Maybe it's a more liberal island, but I don't get those racist vibes others are getting. Two of Karen's son's friends are mixed couples, and he had a black friend as his best man at his wedding in 2008. It was not a scandal, nor did it even raise eyebrows.

There's more racism where we live in N GA, but to give it perspective, I've heard the "N" word exactly twice in 9 years.

Copperhill, TN, is right up the road from us and was allegedly one of the last bastions of the Klan. Two residuals: a few Confederate flags and VERY few black people residing around here.

For what it's worth.
 
superfreddy said:
Are you saying that there is a possibility that they are not bigots at all, but they choose to display "superficial" bigotry just for the fun of it?

:jaw-dropp
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No, not for fun, but because it's socially expected to say bigoted stuff, just like it's socially expected to say polite stuff. The claim that their kindness is superficial implies that it's not motivated by any deep feelings, only by social expectations. Well, why isn't the same possible regarding their bigotry? Perhaps they'll say all sorts of offensive stuff, but when actually dealing with a person who is the subject of such bigotry, they might not actually be interested in doing anything mean to them.

Is that the case? Beats me, I don't live in Tennessee. But it seems at least like a possibility, given the information offered so far.
 
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