Taco Bell sued

[Furcifer]

Hence if you take Ground Beef, you then add solutions/substances prior to cooking and cook it back to or below the weight of the fresh (green weight) article, you can call it "Seasoned Ground Beef".

Wow, just wow. This is just silly.

They're the same, the labeling requirements change depending on what's added during cooking.

For instance, seasoned ground beef like you prepare at home, and not taco meat filling, would be labeled "Seasoned Cooked Ground Beef"

Policy memo 84A

"If cooked, uncured red meat products that contain added solutions/substances prior to cooking are cooked back to or below the weight of the fresh (green weight) article, words, such as "seasoned" and "flavored," are to be used to reflect the addition of the added substances, e.g., Seasoned Cooked Beef."

Now look what you've said

If you had read the entire post you'd know.

"Ground Beef" with seasoning, is raw chopped fresh and/or frozen beef that has had some seasoning added to it.

"Seasoned Ground Beef" is ground beef that has had solutions and substances added to it, and then has been cooked back to at or below its original weight.

SEASONED COOKED GROUND BEEF.

Do you want to try this over? Here's your statement again in case you forgot (conveniently)

"You seem to be confusing "Seasoned Ground Beef" and "Ground Beef" with Seasonings."

What's the difference then? Please be specific. Thanks.

 

[slingblade]

Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that you're not getting it. Have you read the several citations I have provided? Please answer honestly because if you have, I'm just not understanding how you can continue down this road.

The FTC is required to look at the FDA and USDA definitions for terms as well as any other language they use that the public sees. The FTC does this to make their judgment about the wording used in advertising, which doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the FDA or USDA.

Right. I've no argument with that.

The FDA has definitions for what constitutes high fiber. Suppose Taco Bell advertised their tacos as "loaded with fiber." There's no definition for loaded with fiber, right? The tacos in fact contain fiber, right? Could the FTC step in and have them change their advertising?

Of course. Or at least, they can bring a case stating that Taco Bell needs to change their advertising, or else change their product, and both sides, one presumes, will have a chance to argue their cases, and a decision rendered.

Please answer because I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, and I don't want to get entangled in the Great Ground Beef Debate of 2011.

The regulations for what constitutes raw ground beef do not equally apply to cooked ground beef under the circumstances of the case at hand. Taco Bell maintains their product uses USDA regulated raw ground beef. But once it is cooked, the regulations on what it can contain as a raw product no longer apply to the cooked product. Cooked ground beef doesn't have to contain, and cannot contain, the same 70% meat and 30% fat it had when it was raw, because some of the fat has been cooked away. I suppose if you leave it all in the pan and don't drain it off, it will almost be 70/30, but even then, evaporation will still account for some loss, anyway. Cooked ground beef can never be the 70/30 it was when raw, because cooking changes it.

Extenders and fillers are not allowed in raw ground beef.
Taco Bell doesn't buy raw ground beef with extenders or fillers, or so they claim.

Taco meat filling must contain a minimum of 40% meat. What's the other 60% allowed to be, by law? Extenders, fillers, water, and seasonings?

What if the taco meat filling contains 88% cooked ground beef, water, and seasonings? Can it then be marketed and advertised as "seasoned ground beef?"

We'll find out.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Your reading comprehension is failing you. It doesn't say that you have to call it "cooked" it says that you must add words, such as "seasoned" and "flavored," to reflect the addition of the added substances. In other words, if I take ground beef, add seasonings and cook it up, I have to call it "Seasoned Ground Beef" or "Flavoured Ground Beef". There is no part to the regulation that says I have to add cooked to it, the only place they use the word cooked is as an example.

You are failing in your reading here just like you fail in your reading when you claim that "Ground Beef" regulations that state that they are for "raw" meat, and consist of "fresh and/or frozen" meat, also apply to cooked meat.

Cooked meat and Raw meats have different regulations. If you take "Ground Beef" with added seasoning (still allowed to be labeled as "Ground Beef") and cook it so that the total wieght is at or below that of the original meat, then and only then does it become "Seasoned Ground Beef", but not until you cook it.

It's exactly the same reason I can't cook pork, freeze it and then sell it as just "Pork."

Get the difference now?

 

[Furcifer]

But once it is cooked, the regulations on what it can contain as a raw product no longer apply to the cooked product.

Evidence?

You're making up regulations! Please cite this. I've read almost all of Title 9 and most of the FMIA and this is patently false. All the regulations state is :

"Any descriptive designation used as a product name for a product which has no common or usual name shall clearly and completely identify the product. Product which has been prepared by salting, smoking, drying, cooking, chopping, or otherwise shall be so described on the label unless the name of the product implies, or the manner of packaging shows that the product was subjected to such preparation."

That's it. The notion that subjecting a product to heat changes what the product can be called is completely ludicrous. A tomaote is a tomatoe, cooked or raw. A t-bone steak raw is a t-bone steak cooked, not a rib-eye or a New York strip. Ground beef raw is ground beef cooked.

If you stop making up your own regulations you might understand better.

 

[Furcifer]

Cooked meat and Raw meats have different regulations.

You're a liar. This is a lie and you know it.

Either cite these different "regulations" lol, or admit you are lying. I know your making stuff up, so should everyone else.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Of course. Or at least, they can bring a case stating that Taco Bell needs to change their advertising, or else change their product, and both sides, one presumes, will have a chance to argue their cases, and a decision rendered.

Then we're on the same page.

The regulations for what constitutes raw ground beef do not equally apply to cooked ground beef under the circumstances of the case at hand. Taco Bell maintains their product uses USDA regulated raw ground beef. But once it is cooked, the regulations on what it can contain as a raw product no longer apply to the cooked product. Cooked ground beef doesn't have to contain, and cannot contain, the same 70% meat and 30% fat it had when it was raw, because some of the fat has been cooked away. I suppose if you leave it all in the pan and don't drain it off, it will almost be 70/30, but even then, evaporation will still account for some loss, anyway. Cooked ground beef can never be the 70/30 it was when raw, because cooking changes it.

It can contain pretty much whatever they want it to contain so long as it's edible. I'm not sure why the above debate is occurring to be quite honest. Not really interested in going down that road.

Extenders and fillers are not allowed in raw ground beef.
Taco Bell doesn't buy raw ground beef with extenders or fillers, or so they claim.

Taco meat filling must contain a minimum of 40% meat. What's the other 60% allowed to be, by law? Extenders, fillers, water, and seasonings?

Pretty much anything edible I would presume.

What if the taco meat filling contains 88% cooked ground beef, water, and seasonings? Can it then be marketed and advertised as "seasoned ground beef?"

We'll find out.

Yep. As I said before, I'd be a little bit surprised if California ruled in favor of Taco Bell but not much. On a personal level I'd prefer the government bark a little bit louder when companies come near the edge. Jack in the Box promotes having "Quality Ingredients," and for the most part they do. However, their tacos list "texturized vegetable protein" as one of the ingredients. That bothers me since they call it spicy beef. Their other beef products are pretty much all beef with no extenders.

You can argue about what percentage can be fillers, but as consumers we have no way of knowing. All we know is that the order of ingredients is listed by weight. If there is an element that looks and feels like meat, I'm fine with forcing a restaurant to use a term that allows me to easily differentiate their product from a restaurant that doesn't use an extender. If they call it taco meat filling, that's cool, and I don't consider it an undue burden.

 

[Furcifer]

I can't believe people would stoop to lying to back their flawed argument. Are you really that insecure about being wrong that you need to resort to lying about "ground beef"?

Think about it.

 

[slingblade]

Evidence?

Subpart B--Raw Meat Products
Sec. 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products.


(a) Chopped beef, ground beef. "Chopped Beef" or "Ground Beef'"
shall consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen beef with or without
seasoning and without the addition of beef fat as such, shall not
contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water,
phosphates, binders, or extenders. When beef cheek meat (trimmed beef
cheeks) is used in the preparation of chopped or ground beef, the amount
of such cheek meat shall be limited to 25 percent; and if in excess of
natural proportions, its presence shall be declared on the label, in the
ingredient statement required by Sec. 317.2 of this subchapter, if any,
and otherwise contiguous to the name of the product.

You're making up regulations! Please cite this. I've read almost all of Title 9 and most of the FMIA and this is patently false. All the regulations state is :

"Any descriptive designation used as a product name for a product which has no common or usual name shall clearly and completely identify the product. Product which has been prepared by salting, smoking, drying, cooking, chopping, or otherwise shall be so described on the label unless the name of the product implies, or the manner of packaging shows that the product was subjected to such preparation."

Subpart B--Raw Meat Products
Sec. 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products.


(a) Chopped beef, ground beef. "Chopped Beef" or "Ground Beef'"
shall consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen beef with or without
seasoning and without the addition of beef fat as such, shall not
contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water,
phosphates, binders, or extenders. When beef cheek meat (trimmed beef
cheeks) is used in the preparation of chopped or ground beef, the amount
of such cheek meat shall be limited to 25 percent; and if in excess of
natural proportions, its presence shall be declared on the label, in the
ingredient statement required by Sec. 317.2 of this subchapter, if any,
and otherwise contiguous to the name of the product.

That's it. The notion that subjecting a product to heat changes what the product can be called is completely ludicrous.

It changes what the product is. Raw ground beef is not cooked ground beef.
Raw ground beef has those regulations quoted above.

What shall cooked ground beef consist of?

Before you answer, remember that cooking renders away some of the fat and water that was in the raw product. So what should cooked ground beef consist of?

 

[Furcifer]

Subpart B--Raw Meat ProductsSec. 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products.
(a) Chopped beef, ground beef. "Chopped Beef" or "Ground Beef'"
shall consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen beef with or without
seasoning and without the addition of beef fat as such, shall not
contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water,
phosphates, binders, or extenders. When beef cheek meat (trimmed beef
cheeks) is used in the preparation of chopped or ground beef, the amount
of such cheek meat shall be limited to 25 percent; and if in excess of
natural proportions, its presence shall be declared on the label, in the
ingredient statement required by Sec. 317.2 of this subchapter, if any,
and otherwise contiguous to the name of the product.

*sigh

Yes, the regulation says "meat" refers to raw skeletal muscle.

Where's the regulation on cooked if it's different? Where does it say if you cook it it's different?

Ask you husband if a cooked t-bone is the same as a raw t-bone by definition. Or a cooked beet.

Why would you think heating up anything changes what it is?

If you cite the definition of "cooked ground beef" as anything but "ground beef" cooked I'll never post in this thread again.

 

[slingblade]

Sorry, but you're the one who kept insisting these are the regulations used.



Subpart B--Raw Meat Products
Sec. 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products.


(a) Chopped beef, ground beef. "Chopped Beef" or "Ground Beef'"
shall consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen beef with or without
seasoning and without the addition of beef fat as such, shall not
contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water,
phosphates, binders, or extenders. When beef cheek meat (trimmed beef
cheeks) is used in the preparation of chopped or ground beef, the amount
of such cheek meat shall be limited to 25 percent; and if in excess of
natural proportions, its presence shall be declared on the label, in the
ingredient statement required by Sec. 317.2 of this subchapter, if any,
and otherwise contiguous to the name of the product.


Taco Bell uses raw ground beef that it says meets the above standards as an ingredient in "taco meat filling." They cook it. They drain it (one presumes). They add a proprietary seasoning mix and water.

They claim the resulting "taco meat filling" contains 88% cooked ground beef, water, and seasonings.

This does not conflict in any way with the regulations for raw ground beef quoted above.

 

[Furcifer]

So what should cooked ground beef consist of?

Wow. just wow. This is the silliest question I have been asked in a serious manner.

"Cooked ground beef" consists of "ground beef" cooked.

What a cooked chicken consist of? A chicken cooked.

What does a cooked potatoe consist of? A potatoe cooked.

What does a cooked watermelon consist of? A watermelon cooked.

What does a cooked cat consist of? A cat cooked.

What does a cooked pork chop consist of? A pork chop cooked.

What does a cooked asparagus consist of? An asparagus cooked.

What does a cooked chicken wing consist of? A chicken wing cooked.

NOTHING CHANGES, IT'S JUST COOKED.

Cooking does not add anything but heat. Yes,some of the water and fat comes OUT. But nothing comes out to change ground beef into turkey. You have to add stuff to change it. Cooking doesn't add anything.

 

[Furcifer]

Sorry, but you're the one who kept insisting these are the regulations used.

Ok find the regulations for "cooked ground beef".

or a cooked steak. or a cooked pork chop.

This should be interesting.

 

[slingblade]

A tomaote is a tomatoe, cooked or raw.

No. cooking a tomato changes it.

Are stewed tomatoes the same as a raw, uncooked tomato?
Is tomato paste the same as a raw, uncooked tomato?

Do these products contain tomatoes? Of course.
But I can't go to the produce section and get a vine-ripened tomato paste.

If the regulations for raw tomatoes stated they had to be a whole fruit with an intact peel, with no salt or water added, then would crushing and boiling the tomatoes in salted water give you something different from a whole, raw, unpeeled tomato? Would that be different from what the regulations say a tomato must be?

A t-bone steak raw is a t-bone steak cooked,

A raw t-bone steak is not a cooked t-bone steak. One is raw, and one is cooked.

Ground beef raw is ground beef cooked.

Raw ground beef is not cooked ground beef. One is raw, and one is cooked.

 

[tesscaline]

This is really funny...

Sling, is he actually claiming that cooking food does nothing to it? Really?

Someone needs a chemistry class...

*shakes my head and wanders away laughing*

 

[slingblade]

This is really funny...

Sling, is he actually claiming that cooking food does nothing to it? Really?

Someone needs a chemistry class...

*shakes my head and wanders away laughing*

I know. It has baffled me for days now.

 

[Furcifer]

Never mind. I give up.

There's no possible way to figure out what's in cooked ground beef. It's one of the mysteries of the Universe. Sure we know what goes into the pan is defined specifically as ground meat, but once the lid goes on some sort of magic happens. Scientists are baffled by it. They keep putting USDA "extra lean ground beef" into the pot, but nobody can figure out what comes out because the USDA only defines it as raw.

Life, the Big Bang, cooking and magnets, how the **** do they work?

 

[Furcifer]

No. cooking a tomato changes it.

Into what? It's still a tomatoe.

Are stewed tomatoes the same as a raw, uncooked tomato?

Yep, still a tomatoe.

Is tomato paste the same as a raw, uncooked tomato?

Processing, not cooking. I suggest you look at a can of tomatoe paste just for fun.


This takes the cake as the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Second, the guy who cooked a chicken and got stir fry was way out there.


I see your dodging this "cooked ground beef" regulation. As if any moron couldn't tell you if you take lean ground beef and put it in a pot and turn on the heat what you end up with is cooked lean ground beef.

 

[slingblade]

They keep putting USDA "extra lean ground beef" into the pot, but nobody can figure out what comes out because the USDA only defines it as raw.

No one said that.

The USDA has regulations stating the ingredients for raw ground beef.
If Taco Bell/Tyson starts with raw ground beef that meets those regulations, fine and dandy. No laws broken.

Now, once they begin to cook with the raw ground beef, it then becomes an ingredient for something else, for a different product. And whatever you make it into, whatever recipe you use it in, whatever you add to it, if there are regulations regarding that product then they also have to be followed.

The regulations say that when you are making raw ground beef for sale, you are not allowed to add more water to it.

When you buy that same raw ground beef and put it in a pan to cook it, you are allowed to add more water to it.

 

[slingblade]

... if you take lean ground beef and put it in a pot and turn on the heat what you end up with is cooked lean ground beef.

Yes, and while cooking it, you can add more water to it, and you won't be violating the USDA regs for raw ground beef.

We've all been saying that, all along, all except for you.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You're a liar. This is a lie and you know it.

Either cite these different "regulations" lol, or admit you are lying. I know your making stuff up, so should everyone else.

Wow, you call me a liar right after quoting a guidline that states if you cook a product you have to change the name to indicate what you have done to it. (TITLE 9, CHAPTER III, Sec. 317.2e) Why would you have to change the name on the label if they are the same product?

Because:

Ground Beef + Heat = Cooked Ground Beef

and

Cooked Ground Beef =/= Ground Beef

The assumption the USDA looks to be making here us that if you take a regulated product and just cook it, the result of that cooking is going to automatially be a specific product, the cooked version of that original product, thus thereis no need to specific what it looks like because it's going to always be the same.

For example: If I have pork and cook it, I no longer have pork, it no longer meets the regulations for pork. So what do I have? I have Cooked Pork, and that is what I have to label it as unless I make it very obvious to the buyer that it is cooked and not raw. The USDA knows that if I grill a piece of pork it's not going to change into lamb, so they don't have to say "Grilled Pork - This is a peice of pork that is cooked by grilling. The meat is generally white in color but may have a brown caramel like coating." Instead they can just say what you quoted, if you cook it by grilling it ceases to be "Pork" and becomes "Grilled Pork" and that is what you have to label it unless you make darn sure that it is obvious by the packaging that this is what it is, and not raw pork.

Which us exactly what you quoted in your reply directly above the reply to me. It seems that you don't actually understand what you are quoting.