Taco Bell sued

[Furcifer]

Actually that was "Seasoned Cooked Beef" we're looking for "Seasoned Ground Beef", but hey in 3BP's world were "Seasoned Ground Beef" is identical to "Ground Beef" because it's permissible to put seasoning into "Ground Beef" and still label it "Ground Beef" it's probably close enough.

No one has seasonings and one doesn't. That's what "with or without" means.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

lol. And he's started quoting what i quoted as if it supports his case some how...

This is really too hilarious.

What's really funny is where he quotes the part of the regulation where it clearly states that the word "seasoning" is to be added to meat that's been seasoned and then turns around to claim that seasoned ground beef is still inaccurate...

 

[PhantomWolf]

This is the regulation for seasoned ground beef. Perhaps you missing the highlighting?

No it not, it's the regulation for "Ground Beef"

The regulation states that you can add seasoning and still label it "Ground Beef", it does not say that you must then label it "Seasoned Ground Beef", hence it is not a regulation on labeling something as "Seasoned Ground Beef."

 

[PhantomWolf]

No one has seasonings and one doesn't. That's what "with or without" means.

So you're now admitting that your spending the whole thread declaring that TB was advertising "Ground Beef" in their tacos was wrong because "Seasoned Ground Beef" and "Ground Beef" are actually different things?

 

[Furcifer]

If I cooked up a batch of 100% ground beef and added in additives that were solutions and substances (ie water and seasoning) that made it 88% meat and 12% water a seasoning, then cooked it back to below the fresh weight, I could still call that Taco Meat Filling.

Policy memo 84A

"This policy is intended to apply to solutions that impart favorable flavor and other sensory characteristics, but not to solutions containing ingredients used to extend a product, such as isolated soy protein and carrageenan."

I suggest you read the regulations. If you need any help just ask. If you need a ground beef product labeled I'm pretty much an expert at this point.

 

[Furcifer]

So you're now admitting that your spending the whole thread declaring that TB was advertising "Ground Beef" in their tacos was wrong because "Seasoned Ground Beef" and "Ground Beef" are actually different things?

Who said seasoned ground beef was the same as ground beef

One has seasonings and one doesn't.

This is about taco meat filling and seasoned ground beef being different. I don't think you really get this thread at all.

 

[slingblade]

Honestly, I don't know how much more clear it can get. While the USDA and FDA do not directly regulate some things that the FTC handles, the FCT will look at USDA/FDA pronouncements and regulations to make judgments about the things that they do handle.

We're not trying to say they don't act together.

We're trying to say that 3body is misapplying a specific regulation from one of those agencies/departments/bureaus. The regulations for what raw ground beef can contain pertain only to those who are making the raw ground beef.

Let us assume the raw ground beef has been made in accordance with those regulations. It is 100% USDA raw ground beef.

Let's further assume that Taco Bell contracts with Tyson Foods to purchase 100 pounds of "taco meat filling," which Tyson Foods will prepare, package, and label according to both the federal regulations which apply, and the conditions Taco Bell requires. Federal laws and regulations will always take precedence over Taco Bell's conditions, where applicable.

Tyson Foods then acquires however many pounds of 100% USDA raw ground beef and however many pounds of Taco Bell's seasoning mix the recipe requires. (I say this because when cooked, ground beef undergoes some shrinkage through the loss of fats and water. If you cook 100 lbs of ground beef, it will weigh something less than 100 pounds after cooking and draining. So I don't know how much you would purchase raw to equal 100 lbs cooked weight, plus the weight of the added seasonings and water. Let's assume the numbers are known to someone. )

The raw ground beef is then prepared (steamed, boiled, fried, whatever method), and the excess liquids (assuming fats and water) are drained off.

The raw ground beef product is now a cooked ground beef product, and the regulations for what it may contain as raw ground beef no longer apply, because it has already been processed, packaged, sold, and cooked, and now is no longer raw. It contained no fillers or extenders or added water when it was processed and when it was sold. This is the point I and others are trying to make. The regulations are going to be different for those two different products.

Now the regulations for whatever product it is to be made into come into effect. It is to be made into "taco meat filling," and this product can contain fillers and extenders, because it only has to be 40% fresh beef.

This cooked ground beef is to be combined with Taco Bell's seasoning mix, and water (and to the best of my knowledge, pending the trial), nothing else. That's what the trial is supposed to be determining, at least in part. Does Taco Bell's "taco meat filling" meet the minimum requirement of 40% beef, or is it only 36% as claimed?

A product labeled "taco meat filling" must contain at least 40% ground beef (or beef, or meat) to bear that label. This product does bear that label, and Taco Bell avows the content is more than double what is required. Their taco meat filling is 88% cooked ground beef, and 12% seasoning mix and water. The trial is to determine if that is accurate by determining what actually is in the taco meat filling,among other concerns.

So:

Is the raw ground beef used to make this product in accordance with the USDA regulations regarding raw ground beef?

Does the finished product, "taco meat filling," meet or exceed the requirements for that product?

Can Taco Bell market this taco meat filling as "seasoned ground beef?"
If it contains exactly that--ground beef and seasoning--is that a legitimate, reasonable, legal, appropriate marketing description for that product?

Is the public being misled in any step of this process?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Policy memo 84A

"This policy is intended to apply to solutions that impart favorable flavor and other sensory characteristics, but not to solutions containing ingredients used to extend a product, such as isolated soy protein and carrageenan."

I suggest you read the regulations. If you need any help just ask. If you need a ground beef product labeled I'm pretty much an expert at this point.

I'll check the USDA labeling regulations, but I am pretty sure this comes under Non sequitur.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Who said seasoned ground beef was the same as ground beef

You, every time you have stated that TB advertised "Ground Beef" in their advertisments.

One has seasonings and one doesn't.

Agreed, and as such "Seasoned Ground Beef" is not "Ground Beef" under the labeling regulations.

"Seasoned {cooked} Ground Beef" is ground beef that has had seasonings added to it, and then has been cooked back to at or below it's original weight.

These are two quite different things. You seem to be confusing "Seasoned Ground Beef" and "Ground Beef" with Seasonings.

This is about taco meat filling and seasoned ground beef being different. I don't think you really get this thread at all.

Season Ground Beef and Taco Meat Filling don't have to be different things however. Taco Meat Filling is cooked meat with seasoning in which at least 40% of the filling is meat. Seasoned Ground Beef is ground beef that has had seasonings added to it, and then has been cooked back to at or below it's original weight. Thus if the Seasoned Ground Beef has more than 40% meat (which is pretty much gauranteed) it can also be considered Taco Meat Filling if it is going to be used in Tacos.

 

[Furcifer]

This cooked ground beef is to be combined with Taco Bell's seasoning mix, and water (and to the best of my knowledge, pending the trial), nothing else. That's what the trial is supposed to be determining, at least in part. Does Taco Bell's "taco meat filling" m

Nope. You made up some fictitious scenario where Tyson cooks a product twice. On what planet would someone cook ground beef twice? Do you know how much more that would cost? And then Taco Bell prepares it a third time

Exactly what lengths will you go to to support your fantasy?

 

[Furcifer]

You seem to be confusing "Seasoned Ground Beef" and "Ground Beef" with Seasonings.

OK, I'll bite, what's the difference? (in your mind)

Please be specific. Thanks.

 

[slingblade]

Nope. You made up some fictitious scenario where Tyson cooks a product twice. On what planet would someone cook ground beef twice? Do you know how much more that would cost? And then Taco Bell prepares it a third time

Exactly what lengths will you go to to support your fantasy?

At what point in the process do you drain the excess fats and water from the cooked meat?

Some might prepare a taco meat filling by not draining it, and simply adding the seasoning mix to the liquid content produced by cooking the meat, but that would be a lot of extra fat. Most people drain that off, add fresh water, and the seasonings, and simmer.

Do you know if they drain the cooked meat or not, and when in the process this might occur?

And what's this even got to do with your applying standards for raw ground beef to cooked ground beef and/or taco meat filling?

 

[JohnnyG]

If you need a ground beef product labeled I'm pretty much an expert at this point.

 

[Furcifer]

Do you know if they drain the cooked meat or not, and when in the process this might occur?

To be honest I'm not sure. I suspect it's during only because it makes sense, you're not going to bring something down in temperature and back up again, it would cost a fortune. I'm pretty sure the product is drained though, I've seen it in the bags up close and there's very, very little fat.

(don't forget, there are emulsifiers in it, so the fat gets locked into the product. It's possible they don't drain it at all)

And what's this even got to do with your applying standards for raw ground beef to cooked ground beef and/or taco meat filling?

I can't repeat this enough, the regulation applies to "cooked" the exact same way, it's just that the label would say "cooked ground beef". If it was seasoned it would be "Seasoned Cooked Ground Beef". If you add binders or extenders to ground beef you get "Imitation Ground Beef" or "taco meat filling" "burrito meat filling" "enchilada meat filling" "tamale meat filling" "imitation hamburger". (I can't find the regulation, but "filling" seems to imply "cooked", don't quote me on that just yet)

It depends on what you add to the mix and what it's going into etc.

 

[PhantomWolf]

OK, I'll bite, what's the difference? (in your mind)

Please be specific. Thanks.

If you had read the entire post you'd know.

"Ground Beef" with seasoning, is raw chopped fresh and/or frozen beef that has had some seasoning added to it.

"Seasoned Ground Beef" is ground beef that has had solutions and substances added to it, and then has been cooked back to at or below its original weight.

They are covered under different regulations.

 

[slingblade]

To be honest I'm not sure. I suspect it's during only because it makes sense, you're not going to bring something down in temperature and back up again, it would cost a fortune. I'm pretty sure the product is drained though, I've seen it in the bags up close and there's very, very little fat.

Okay, fair enough. But then, we seem to agree that they might drain it, and they'd do that before adding the seasonings, or else they'd just be pouring the seasonings back off.

Why would you call this a fantasy, when it's pretty much the way most people make taco fillings, or other recipes with cooked ground beef? Most things you use it in, you're going to drain it first. That may be cooking it twice, but that's how it's usually done. So, why "fantasy?"

(don't forget, there are emulsifiers in it, so the fat gets locked into the product. It's possible they don't drain it at all)

I don't know what's in it, beyond what the label I've read says is in it. The trial will determine that, I'm assuming. Then we'll know. Until then, I am provisionally accepting what Taco Bell's labeling says, by default. I don't have the evidence provided by the testing, so I can't even comment on it. None of us can, yet.

I can't repeat this enough, the regulation applies to "cooked" the exact same way, it's just that the label would say "cooked ground beef". If it was seasoned it would be "Seasoned Cooked Ground Beef". If you add binders or extenders to ground beef you get "Imitation Ground Beef" or "taco meat filling" "burrito meat filling" "enchilada meat filling" "tamale meat filling" "imitation hamburger". (I can't find the regulation, but "filling" seems to imply "cooked", don't quote me on that just yet)

It depends on what you add to the mix and what it's going into etc.

...I don't think adding binders or extenders to the ground beef renders it "imitation." Imitation ground beef is Gardenburgers, isn't it, and they're ALL soy and oats and stuff, no beef whatsoever, not even waved over the top in passing.

The regulations apply to cooked only insofar as determining if properly regulated raw ground beef was used as an ingredient in making "taco meat filling." As far as we know, that's the kind of raw beef used.

The "taco meat filling" is properly labeled and prepared, and as far as we know, contains more than twice the required amount of cooked ground beef. If this is true, then there's not much room for any fillers of any kind. They still have to add seasoning mix and water. How much filler or extender can there be, if 88% of the product is actually cooked ground beef as Taco Bell claims?

The court will determine if the "taco meat filling" product used by Taco Bell in its "seasoned ground beef" products can accurately, reasonably, legally be marketed and advertised as "seasoned ground beef."

 

[Uncayimmy]

We're not trying to say they don't act together.

We're trying to say that 3body is misapplying a specific regulation from one of those agencies/departments/bureaus. The regulations for what raw ground beef can contain pertain only to those who are making the raw ground beef.

Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that you're not getting it. Have you read the several citations I have provided? Please answer honestly because if you have, I'm just not understanding how you can continue down this road.

The FTC is required to look at the FDA and USDA definitions for terms as well as any other language they use that the public sees. The FTC does this to make their judgment about the wording used in advertising, which doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the FDA or USDA.

The FDA has definitions for what constitutes high fiber. Suppose Taco Bell advertised their tacos as "loaded with fiber." There's no definition for loaded with fiber, right? The tacos in fact contain fiber, right? Could the FTC step in and have them change their advertising?

Please answer because I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, and I don't want to get entangled in the Great Ground Beef Debate of 2011.

 

[Furcifer]

"Seasoned Ground Beef" is ground beef that has had solutions and substances added to it, and then has been cooked back to at or below its original weight.

They are covered under different regulations.

You want to think about this? Or maybe cite the regulation you just made up

 

[PhantomWolf]

You want to think about this? Or maybe cite the regulation you just made up

It's already been cited, even you cited it but didn't seem to understand it.

If cooked, uncured red meat products that contain added solutions/substances prior to cooking are cooked back to or below the weight of the fresh (green weight) article, words, such as "seasoned" and "flavored," are to be used to reflect the addition of the added substances, e.g., Seasoned Cooked Beef.

Hence if you take Ground Beef, you then add solutions/substances prior to cooking and cook it back to or below the weight of the fresh (green weight) article, you can call it "Seasoned Ground Beef".

 

[Furcifer]

Why would you call this a fantasy, when it's pretty much the way most people make taco fillings, or other recipes with cooked ground beef? Most things you use it in, you're going to drain it first. That may be cooking it twice, but that's how it's usually done. So, why "fantasy?"

I'm sorry, it's not a fantasy. I think you have a distinctly different idea of what's going on here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying they cook the ground beef, then add the seasonings, mix it and bag it.

That's wrong because we know the additives are used during the cooking process to change the physical characteristics of the product. First because you know as well as I do Taco Bell meat doesn't look like the stuff you cook at home, second because Taco Bell admitted it. Chemically some of the stuff added wouldn't bind with the proteins if it was added after the cooking.

...I don't think adding binders or extenders to the ground beef renders it "imitation." Imitation ground beef is Gardenburgers, isn't it, and they're ALL soy and oats and stuff, no beef whatsoever, not even waved over the top in passing.

Combinations of ground beef or hamburger and soy products may be descriptively labeled, e.g., "Hamburger and Textured Vegetable Protein Product" or "Ground Beef and Isolated Soy Protein Product" if the combination product is not nutritionally inferior to hamburger or ground beef. If the combination products are nutritionally inferior, they are to be labeled as Imitation Ground Beef (or Imitation Hamburger) or Beef Patty or Beef Patty Mix in accordance with Section 317.2(j)(1) and Section 319.15(c) respectively.

So yes, it's not as easy as just adding them. It's about the combination of additives resulting in a nutritionally inferior product.

How much filler or extender can there be, if 88% of the product is actually cooked ground beef as Taco Bell claims?

Very good question.

The court will determine if the "taco meat filling" product used by Taco Bell in its "seasoned ground beef" products can accurately, reasonably, legally be marketed and advertised as "seasoned ground beef."

Agreed!