Taco Bell sued

Nobody has demonstrated any differences in the laws therefore there is no reason to assume they differ.

While Canada is part of the British commonwealth, it can and does make its own laws. I understand America violently seceded from British rule and chose to make its own laws.

If they did, TB sells and advertises their product to Canadians so they are applicable, if not now in the future.

Do TB advertise this product in the same way in Canada? Does TB provide exactly the same product in Canada? Manufacturers who provide the same named product in multiple countries do have different ingredients in them -- ask Alain Baxter about it.

I think you need to reread posts 534 and 577, because whatever Canada does isn't going to determine whether the plaintiff or the defendant of this case prevails.
 
While Canada is part of the British commonwealth, it can and does make its own laws. I understand America violently seceded from British rule and chose to make its own laws.

There may be slight differences in the laws but for the most part they are the same because they are derived from English common law. I seem to recall US case law being cited in Canada and I know very often US law will follow Canadian and vice versa. I don't know why you think US laws are unique to the US? We have driver's licences you have drivers licences, we can't speed you can't speed, we can't libel you can't libel, we can't murder you can't murder, we have contracts you have contracts etc. etc.
I can go on for days about the similarities between Canadian and US laws. Given the fact that these chain restaurants operate on both sides of the border I don't see any reason they aren't the same when it comes to fraud and misleading advertising. Laws don't come out of the ether, they get borrowed from other countries as they are created. The notion that they differ significantly in this case is absurd. And no one has been able to cite any differences despite my showing numerous times how they are the exact same. Unless you can cite specific differences there's no reason to assume they aren't the same.

Do TB advertise this product in the same way in Canada? Does TB provide exactly the same product in Canada? Manufacturers who provide the same named product in multiple countries do have different ingredients in them -- ask Alain Baxter about it.

Yep, the exact same the few times I've seen them, although they did differ in price when Canadian currency wasn't so close to par. I seem to recall the $0.99 menu was $1.39 here in Canada and the drive thru was open later in the US for a time. These days they are the same, including the special menus and products.

I think you need to reread posts 534 and 577, because whatever Canada does isn't going to determine whether the plaintiff or the defendant of this case prevails.

The fact is whatever happens in the US happens here. If the class action proceeds in the US the results will apply here in Canada. If the class action fails in the US it won't pass the mustard in Canada either. If this class action was filed in Canada the results would be applied in the US. I'm sorry but all you're doing is implying the US is somehow special. It isn't.

Perhaps I'll PM LashL and ask her her opinion on how much different the laws are between the countries. As far as I know they are fundamentally the same, except the french thing of course.
 
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I think you're making my point for me.

Like others, I don't think I'll bother responding to your idiocy further.



Why because I won't entertain your nonsense? So be it. The laws in England, Canada and the US differ very little when it comes to things like fraud, plagiarism and advertising code of conduct. The labeling laws in Canada and the US are adapted from England specifically.

The slight differences like the US being primarily a "right to work" state or drinking age of 21 in certain places are irrelevant to this discussion.

You can't show any differences in the laws regarding misleading advertising are because they only exist in you mind. Your failure is of your own doing. And perhaps that of the US government, it's not very streamlined and there are redundancies having the FDA and USDA regulating the same things and different things all at the same time.

Unsupported claims are a nuisance and won't be missed in this discussion. Nor will the pouting and pleading that comes with them.
 
The fact is whatever happens in the US happens here. If the class action proceeds in the US the results will apply here in Canada. If the class action fails in the US it won't pass the mustard in Canada either. If this class action was filed in Canada the results would be applied in the US. I'm sorry but all you're doing is implying the US is somehow special. It isn't.
In a general sense that's reasonably true.

This case, however, it a state level case in California. I believe you are in Canada, correct? The Republic of California has their own idea of how consumers should be informed. Companies are forced to label some products in a way that reads something like, "This widget contains XYZ. XYZ is known to the State of California to cause cancer." They only have to do it in California, and unless there's a practical reason to include it nationally (printing costs, for example), it's only done in California.

I'm not convinced that if Taco Bell loses that it will affect their national advertising much less their international advertising. It might, but I wouldn't consider it a given.

However, if this were a case brought by the FTC, I have little doubt that they'd change the advertising in Canada as well (if they lost).
 
In a general sense that's reasonably true.

This case, however, it a state level case in California. I believe you are in Canada, correct? The Republic of California has their own idea of how consumers should be informed. Companies are forced to label some products in a way that reads something like, "This widget contains XYZ. XYZ is known to the State of California to cause cancer." They only have to do it in California, and unless there's a practical reason to include it nationally (printing costs, for example), it's only done in California.

Well, the case was filed in the US District Court, not a state court.

And while this data is old, here's a breakdown:

Workload of the District Courts

However, most cases never get that far. The overwhelming majority of cases before the federal courts at the district court level are decided before the case ever goes to trial. According to the the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts, the federal district courts handled over 250,000 civil cases in fiscal year 2003. However, only 4,206 cases, or 1.7 percent, were decided through the trial process. Only 2,674 cases went to a jury, with 1,532 cases heard as bench trials. About 40% of the cases that went to a jury trial involved alleged civil rights violations.

http://www.catea.gatech.edu/grade/legal/district.html
 
Well, the case was filed in the US District Court, not a state court.

The case is being brought under two California statutes:

California's Business & Professions Code § 17200

CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE SECTION 1750 Consumers Legal Remedies Act

The reason it is being tried in a federal court is explained in the lawsuit itself (page 2). Essentially, it's a civil class action lawsuit where the money involved exceeds $5,000,000, and a significant number class members are citizens of states other than the state where Taco Bell resides. See U.S.C. 1332. That doesn't change the fact that it's based on state law.
 
In a general sense that's reasonably true.

This case, however, it a state level case in California. I believe you are in Canada, correct? The Republic of California has their own idea of how consumers should be informed. Companies are forced to label some products in a way that reads something like, "This widget contains XYZ. XYZ is known to the State of California to cause cancer." They only have to do it in California, and unless there's a practical reason to include it nationally (printing costs, for example), it's only done in California.

I'm not convinced that if Taco Bell loses that it will affect their national advertising much less their international advertising. It might, but I wouldn't consider it a given.

However, if this were a case brought by the FTC, I have little doubt that they'd change the advertising in Canada as well (if they lost).

I've found some subtle differences in how things are labeled from State to State and country to country, but the basic principles seem to be the same.

"Ground beef" is what's called a "standardized food product". That standard applies in both Canada and the US. "Ground beef" is identical in Canada and the US, as are the modifiers "extra lean", "lean", "medium" and "Regular", each denoting a specific fat content. The definition also allows for the inclusion of seasoning.
Based on that, what is considered "seasoning" in the US as it applies to the "standardized food product" "ground beef" should equally apply to food products here in Canada. If it didn't it wouldn't really be standardized.
What Taco Bell has labeled "seasoning" in the taco filling is somewhat questionable as it contains additives not normally considered "seasoning" under the FDA CFR 21 Part 170 Food Additives
Anti-caking agents 172.480 like silica, dried yeasts 172.896 aren't seasonings, although they are Substances Generally Recognized as Safe. 181.2-182.8997
Likewise the addition of oats in such large quantities doesn't act as a seasoning because it changes the physical properties (texture) and is used to retain moisture.
Based on all of this the term "seasoned ground beef" is in fact wrong. The "seasonings" Taco Bell lists don't match those considered seasonings in the definition of "ground beef" (plus their quantities are well beyond reasonable), and instead match those of the "substitute standardized product" known as "taco filling"

These standards apply in Canada, so what's taco filling in the US is taco filling in Canada, and what's "seasoned ground beef" in the US is "seasoned ground beef" in Canada. Any change here in Canada would affect the definition in the US and any change in the US would affect the definition here in Canada.

I'm fairly confident if this case makes it to trial they will be required to stop calling it seasoned ground beef. Despite what people have been saying in this thread the FDA and USDA definitions are very specific for a reason. The label on the package "taco meat filling" is 100% correct. "seasoned ground beef" is completely and utterly wrong. I don't see them allowing Taco Bell to take liberties with this "standardized food product" definition in ads and on TV.
 
What pork question?

ETA: there's no pork question on this page

ETA: no pork question in the last 150 posts:confused:

Nice sidestepping of a question yet again.

As to the Pork question, you first ignore it back on page 5 in post 209, and it's been repeated since then and even though you adressed other comments in those posts, you ignored the question asked.

Just for you, again....

3bodyproblem,


TITLE 9 - ANIMALS AND ANIMAL PRODUCTS

CHAPTER III - FOOD SAFETY AND INSPECTION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

SUBCHAPTER A - AGENCY ORGANIZATION AND TERMINOLOGY; MANDATORY MEAT AND POULTRY PRODUCTS INSPECTION AND VOLUNTARY INSPECTION AND CERTIFICATION

PART 319 - DEFINITIONS AND STANDARDS OF IDENTITY OR COMPOSITION

subpart b - RAW MEAT PRODUCTS

319.29 - Miscellaneous pork products.


Just down from the 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products, states that:

Such product (pork) shall have a pinkish color and a fresh odor and appearance.

You contend that these regluations apply to the meat both raw and cooked, even though it states raw meat. Do you then claim that cooked pork must still be pink and that as a result, cooked pork that is white does not meet the regulations and is therefore illegal?

While you are at it, feel free to point out anywhere that TB advertises their Tacos as containing "Ground Beef".
 
And commenting on question you fail to answer....

Is there any regulation on how much seasoning you can add before it is no longer considered seasoned "ground beef"?
 
What Taco Bell has labeled "seasoning" in the taco filling is somewhat questionable as it contains additives not normally considered "seasoning" under the FDA CFR 21 Part 170 Food Additives
Anti-caking agents 172.480 like silica, dried yeasts 172.896 aren't seasonings, although they are Substances Generally Recognized as Safe. 181.2-182.8997

And yet looking it up I discovered that dried yeasts 172.896 is called Torula Yeast. Looking up that I got to the Wiki page about it. Imagine my surprise when the first thing it says is this....

Torula, in its inactive form (usually labeled as torula yeast), is widely used as a flavouring in processed foods and pet foods.

OMG, it's a flavouring. Hang on, aren't flavourings also called "seasonings"?
 
No one expects the Canadian inquisition.

... unless they live in a border town. :p

"Do you have a gun? Come on, you're American. You've never owned a gun? What about pepper spray? Really, no weapons at all? How about the people in the back. You carrying anything? No? Ok, enjoy your visit to Canada."
 
As to the Pork question

Why would the definition of the "standardized product" need to be defined for cooked as well as raw as well as frozen, freeze dried etc.? Yes, it's defined raw. I don't see your point, in fact you seem to be making mine.

While you are at it, feel free to point out anywhere that TB advertises their Tacos as containing "Ground Beef".

In all their ads and the website.
 
Why would the definition of the "standardized product" need to be defined for cooked as well as raw as well as frozen, freeze dried etc.? Yes, it's defined raw. I don't see your point, in fact you seem to be making mine.

My point is that the standard states that pork must be "a pinkish color". Cooked Pork isn't, it's white, thus cooked pork cannot meet the standard for Pork given. Obviously cooked pork is still pork however, even though it no longer meets the standards for Raw Pork. In the same way we can infer that cooked ground beef is still ground beef even without meeting the standards for Raw Ground Beef.

In all their ads and the website.

Then it shouldn't be to hard to prove that they state that it has "Ground Beef" in it, should it. Evidence please.
 
Is there any regulation on how much seasoning you can add before it is no longer considered seasoned "ground beef"?

Not really. It's one of the those "in accordance with normal practices" and "not to the extent that it alters the product". If Taco Bell was using chill powder, cumin and coriander at the 12% level it wouldn't matter. However, what Taco Bell uses do not meet the definition of "seasonings" as it applies to "ground beef". Title 21 CFR 182.10 This is because what you can put into a "standardized food product" is different than what you can put into a "substitute standardized food product".

ETA:182.1 (b) For the purposes of this section, good manufacturing practice shall be defined to include the following restrictions:

(1) The quantity of a substance added to food does not exceed the amount reasonably required to accomplish its intended physical, nutritional, or other technical effect in food; and

(2) The quantity of a substance that becomes a component of food as a result of its use in the manufacturing, processing, or packaging of food, and which is not intended to accomplish any physical or other technical effect in the food itself, shall be reduced to the extent reasonably possible.
 
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My point is that the standard states that pork must be "a pinkish color". Cooked Pork isn't, it's white, thus cooked pork cannot meet the standard for Pork given. Obviously cooked pork is still pork however, even though it no longer meets the standards for Raw Pork. In the same way we can infer that cooked ground beef is still ground beef even without meeting the standards for Raw Ground Beef.

"Thermal processing" doesn't change anything.


Then it shouldn't be to hard to prove that they state that it has "Ground Beef" in it, should it. Evidence please.

Already been cited, it's on the website.
 
And yet looking it up I discovered that dried yeasts 172.896 is called Torula Yeast. Looking up that I got to the Wiki page about it. Imagine my surprise when the first thing it says is this....

OMG, it's a flavouring. Hang on, aren't flavourings also called "seasonings"?

OMG you used da wiki! That's reliable. :rolleyes:


I could care less what wiki says, I'm talking about the FDA.

Try 182.10
 
Not really. It's one of the those "in accordance with normal practices" and "not to the extent that it alters the product". If Taco Bell was using chill powder, cumin and coriander at the 12% level it wouldn't matter. However, what Taco Bell uses do not meet the definition of "seasonings" as it applies to "ground beef". Title 21 CFR 182.10 This is because what you can put into a "standardized food product" is different than what you can put into a "substitute standardized food product".

ETA:182.1 (b) For the purposes of this section, good manufacturing practice shall be defined to include the following restrictions:

(1) The quantity of a substance added to food does not exceed the amount reasonably required to accomplish its intended physical, nutritional, or other technical effect in food; and

(2) The quantity of a substance that becomes a component of food as a result of its use in the manufacturing, processing, or packaging of food, and which is not intended to accomplish any physical or other technical effect in the food itself, shall be reduced to the extent reasonably possible.

So, evidence that the ingredients in Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef fails to meet either of these criteria?
 
So, evidence that the ingredients in Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef fails to meet either of these criteria?

I know way too much about this stuff now. :)

From the USDA:Oat Fiber - Various meat products (e.g., frankfurters, sausage patties, loaves) where binders are permitted and whole muscle meat products

Binders aren't permitted in "ground beef", but they are in taco filling. More proof that what Taco Bell uses is taco filling, not "ground beef".
 

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