Taco Bell sued

3bodyproblem said:
I know way too much about this stuff now. :)

From the USDA:Oat Fiber - Various meat products (e.g., frankfurters, sausage patties, loaves) where binders are permitted and whole muscle meat products

Binders aren't permitted in "ground beef", but they are in taco filling. More proof that what Taco Bell uses is taco filling, not "ground beef".
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Too bad it that directive doesn't apply to Taco Bell:

This directive provides inspection program personnel (IPP) with an up-to-date list of substances that may be used in the production of meat, poultry, and egg products.
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Taco Bell is not considered a "meat producer". Taco Bell is a restaurant. The USDA does not regulate restaurants.

Here's what the USDA does link


USDA has created a strategic plan to implement its vision. The framework of this plan depends on these key activities: expanding markets for agricultural products and support international economic development, further developing alternative markets for agricultural products and activities, providing financing needed to help expand job opportunities and improve housing, utilities and infrastructure in rural America, enhancing food safety by taking steps to reduce the prevalence of foodborne hazards from farm to table, improving nutrition and health by providing food assistance and nutrition education and promotion, and managing and protecting America's public and private lands working cooperatively with other levels of government and the private sector.
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USDA directives, regulations, rules, inspections, et al do not apply to restaurants.


ETA: Regardless, Taco Bell doesn't advertise that they are selling ground beef. Taco Bell advertises the use of their seasoned ground beef. Note that this isn't against USDA regulations as USDA regulations do not apply to Taco Bell. Note also that this is not a lie, nor misleading, as what Taco Bell uses as taco filling is 88% ground beef. That is a reasonable amount of ground beef to be found in a prepared taco, as was explained previously be SkeptiChick.
 
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3bodyproblem said:
I know way too much about this stuff now. :)

From the USDA:Oat Fiber - Various meat products (e.g., frankfurters, sausage patties, loaves) where binders are permitted and whole muscle meat products

Binders aren't permitted in "ground beef", but they are in taco filling. More proof that what Taco Bell uses is taco filling, not "ground beef".
Click to expand...

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that this ^ is not evidence that Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef does not meet the criteria you quoted from 182.10.

Try again?
 
BobTheDonkey said:
Too bad it that directive doesn't apply to Taco Bell:
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Yes it does. It applies to everyone wishing to make advertised claims, the FTC makes it apply.

What's so hard to understand about fraud? They get taco filling and call it seasoned ground beef. That's misleading.

If McDonald's says their burgers are 100% ground beef, even though they're a restaurant, they've got to be 100% ground beef.

You're grasping at straws now.
 
This is funny, I've got you dead to rights on this with every applicable regulation and you're still squirming.

You're not a skeptic, you're just arguing. You haven't cited any evidence, just made empty claims.

Game, set, match! ;)
 
3bodyproblem said:
This is funny, I've got you dead to rights on this with every applicable regulation and you're still squirming.

You're not a skeptic, you're just arguing. You haven't cited any evidence, just made empty claims.

Game, set, match! ;)
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When you're the only one on your side of an argument and then feel the need to declare victory despite not having convinced anyone of anything it might be time to step back and reconsider your position.
 
Hey look, here's some indication it does apply to "retail stores", including restaurants:

From the FSIS:http://www.fsis.usda.gov/fact_sheets/Ground_Beef_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

"Most states and cities set standards for store-packaged ground beef which, by law, cannot be less than Federal standards. If products in retail stores were found to contain more than 30% fat, they would be considered "misbranded" under Federal law. "
The "exemption": The requirements of the Act and the regulations in this
subchapter for inspection of the preparation of products do not apply to operations of types traditionally and usually conducted at retail stores and restaurants, when conducted at any retail store or restaurant or
similar retail-type establishment for sale in normal retail quantities"


I know we couldn't get away with it at the butcher shop. That's a retail store, just like a restaurant. It's not a clear link, but it's suggesting Taco Bell may not be clear and free like some people insist.
 
Aoidoi said:
When you're the only one on your side of an argument and then feel the need to declare victory despite not having convinced anyone of anything it might be time to step back and reconsider your position.
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Hardly, I don't need to convince anyone. Facts is facts and the facts are Taco Bell doesn't use seasoned ground beef, they use taco filling.

Nice try though. I'm in victory mode and that's a fact. :D
 
BobTheDonkey said:
Fine. Then whatever statute you quoted in post #696.
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Ah IC. You don't understand how that's about additives and seasonings. If you read it you'll understand how it's talking about both (a few others as well I just snipped them from the quote)

(it's just .1 not .10)
 
3bodyproblem said:
Yes it does. It applies to everyone wishing to make advertised claims, the FTC makes it apply.

What's so hard to understand about fraud? They get taco filling and call it seasoned ground beef. That's misleading.

If McDonald's says their burgers are 100% ground beef, even though they're a restaurant, they've got to be 100% ground beef.

You're grasping at straws now.
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Not so much as you would like to think.

USDA guidelines apply to the production of meat/veggies. Period. By your reasoning, Taco Bell could not legally use water and/or starch in their seasoning mix and still call the resulting mix anything similar to "ground beef". This is simply neither here nor there as:

A) Taco Bell is not selling 'ground beef'. Taco Bell is selling a product that contains 'ground beef' that has been seasoned.

B) Taco Bell is not a meat producer, nor do they sell just the beef, so the USDA rules regarding labeling are not automatically applicable. Especially not rules pertaining to raw beef.

C) While the producer may sell taco meat filling to Taco Bell (because the producer legally must acknowledge it is 88% beef, 12% seasonings/water/perservatives, instead of 100% ground beef), that does not mean it is misleading nor illegal for Taco Bell to label the mix as "seasoned ground beef" externally.

It would, on one hand, be false for Taco Bell to claim their product was seasoned ground beef if there was an unreasonably low percentage of beef in their mix. There isn't, or at least, no evidence has been presented to that effect - only bare assertion.

Food advertising is only required to be truthful and not misleading, or so UY states. 88% beef/12% seasoning/water/preservatives is not an unreasonable mixture for the label "seasoned ground beef". It's really that simple, and this adheres to your quoted statue in post #696.
 
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BobTheDonkey said:
USDA directives, regulations, rules, inspections, et al do not apply to restaurants.
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Yes they do. They don't apply them directly, they just make them.

The FTC applies them for advertising and the FSIS applies them to meat packers and FDA to manufacturing. (I think I've got it now ;) )

The US is confusing, they've got the USDA, the FDA, the FSIS and the FTC all involved in food. I think there's another body for meat as well.
 
BobTheDonkey said:
A) Taco Bell is not selling 'ground beef'. Taco Bell is selling a product that contains 'ground beef' that has been seasoned.
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Nope. It's clear from the meat packers label they don't. I don't know why you think you know more than the supplier who makes and applies the labels :rolleyes:

BobTheDonkey said:
B) Taco Bell is not a meat producer, nor do they sell just the beef, so the USDA rules regarding labeling are not automatically applicable. Especially not rules pertaining to raw beef.
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Correct actually. The FTC will make them applicable. Raw or cooked is irrelevant.

BobTheDonkey said:
C) While the producer may sell taco meat filling to Taco Bell (because the producer legally must acknowledge it is 88% beef, 12% seasonings/water/perservatives, instead of 100% ground beef), that does not mean it is misleading nor illegal for Taco Bell to label the mix as "seasoned ground beef" externally.
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They don't have seasoned ground beef, they have another product called taco filling. No matter how many times you repeat this it's still wrong. You've been shown the regulations that CLEARLY indicate this.

BobTheDonkey said:
It would, on one hand, be false for Taco Bell to claim their product was seasoned ground beef if there was an unreasonably low percentage of beef in their mix. There isn't, or at least, no evidence has been presented to that effect - only bare assertion.
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Nope utter nonsense you made up.

BobTheDonkey said:
Food advertising is only required to be truthful and not misleading, or so UY states. 88% beef/12% seasoning/water/preservatives is not an unreasonable mixture for the label "seasoned ground beef".
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Nope, you don't understand the regulations you just read obviously. A Taco Bell store never sees an ounce of ground beef unless an employee packs it in their lunch :D
 
Oh and that's another thing. Somebody asked how Taco Bell got their "seasoned ground beef" by the USDA when they submitted the recipe. The reason it "got by" is because the supplier, Tyson or whomever, submitted the recipe and got the OK to call it "Taco Meat Filling" as it appears on the true and accurate label. Taco Bell was never OK'd by the USDA to call it "seasoned ground beef".
 
Just for reference I searched online for the ingredients of "Taco Filling" from other producers that supply restaurants. Here's what I found.

Green Burrito "Beef Taco Filling, Ground"
Beef, Water, Textured Vegetable Protein (Soy Flour, Caramel Color), Onion, Seasoning (Paprika, Salt, Dehydrated Onion,
Sodium Phosphate, Dehydrated Bell Pepper, Dehydrated Garlic, Caramel Color), Oats.
​

AdvancePierre's "Beef Taco Filling":
Water, Ground beef (No more than 30% fat), tomatoes, Textured vegetable protein (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), spices, dehydrated onions, salt, garlic powder, paprika, sugar.
​
J.T.M. Food Group "TACO FILLING WITH BEEF AND TEXTURED SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE"
BEEF, WATER, TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), TOMATO PASTE, SEASONING (dehydrated onions, chili pepper and other spices, dehydrated garlic, salt), SALT, CARAMEL COLOR, VINEGAR, SODIUM PHOSPHATES, PAPRIKA EXTRACT
​
Tezzata "Beef Taco Filling, Mild"
Beef, Water, Crushed Tomatoes (Tomatoes, Salt, Citric Acid), Textured Vegetable Protein (Soy Protein Concentrate, Caramel Color), Crushed Oats, Jalapeno Peppers, Salt, Spices, Chili Powder (Spices, Garlic Powder, Spice Extractives), Sugar, Hydrolyzed Corn
​
School Lunch Solutions "Beef Taco Filling":
BEEF, TOMATO PUREE (water, tomato paste), WATER, TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), SEASONING (dehydrated onions, chili pepper and other spices, dehydrated garlic, salt, calcium stearate, calcium silicate), SALT, CARMEL COLOR, VINEGAR, EXTRACT OF PAPRIKA.
​
Two things I noticed. Oats seems to be a common ingredient. And "oats" sounds more appetizing than "Textured Vegetable Protein." :-)

-- Roger
 
jadebox said:
Just for reference I searched online for the ingredients of "Taco Filling" from other producers that supply restaurants. Here's what I found.

Green Burrito "Beef Taco Filling, Ground"
Beef, Water, Textured Vegetable Protein (Soy Flour, Caramel Color), Onion, Seasoning (Paprika, Salt, Dehydrated Onion,
Sodium Phosphate, Dehydrated Bell Pepper, Dehydrated Garlic, Caramel Color), Oats.
​

AdvancePierre's "Beef Taco Filling":
Water, Ground beef (No more than 30% fat), tomatoes, Textured vegetable protein (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), spices, dehydrated onions, salt, garlic powder, paprika, sugar.
​
J.T.M. Food Group "TACO FILLING WITH BEEF AND TEXTURED SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE"
BEEF, WATER, TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), TOMATO PASTE, SEASONING (dehydrated onions, chili pepper and other spices, dehydrated garlic, salt), SALT, CARAMEL COLOR, VINEGAR, SODIUM PHOSPHATES, PAPRIKA EXTRACT
​
Tezzata "Beef Taco Filling, Mild"
Beef, Water, Crushed Tomatoes (Tomatoes, Salt, Citric Acid), Textured Vegetable Protein (Soy Protein Concentrate, Caramel Color), Crushed Oats, Jalapeno Peppers, Salt, Spices, Chili Powder (Spices, Garlic Powder, Spice Extractives), Sugar, Hydrolyzed Corn
​
School Lunch Solutions "Beef Taco Filling":
BEEF, TOMATO PUREE (water, tomato paste), WATER, TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (soy protein concentrate, caramel color), SEASONING (dehydrated onions, chili pepper and other spices, dehydrated garlic, salt, calcium stearate, calcium silicate), SALT, CARMEL COLOR, VINEGAR, EXTRACT OF PAPRIKA.
​
Two things I noticed. Oats seems to be a common ingredient. And "oats" sounds more appetizing than "Textured Vegetable Protein." :-)

-- Roger
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Oats and "textured vegetable protein" are not interchangeable. :)
 
3bodyproblem said:
Not really. It's one of the those "in accordance with normal practices" and "not to the extent that it alters the product". If Taco Bell was using chill powder, cumin and coriander at the 12% level it wouldn't matter. However, what Taco Bell uses do not meet the definition of "seasonings" as it applies to "ground beef". Title 21 CFR 182.10 This is because what you can put into a "standardized food product" is different than what you can put into a "substitute standardized food product".

ETA:182.1 (b) For the purposes of this section, good manufacturing practice shall be defined to include the following restrictions:

(1) The quantity of a substance added to food does not exceed the amount reasonably required to accomplish its intended physical, nutritional, or other technical effect in food; and

(2) The quantity of a substance that becomes a component of food as a result of its use in the manufacturing, processing, or packaging of food, and which is not intended to accomplish any physical or other technical effect in the food itself, shall be reduced to the extent reasonably possible.
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Your mind works in the strangest ways. When is a list of natural herbs and spices considered to be 'the definition of "seasonings" as it applies to "ground beef"'? I notice it doesn't include Lemon Pepper, is that not counted as a Seasoning or flavouring? Or perhaps your list is exactly what it says, a list of "Spices and other natural seasonings and flavorings."

So as to the second. Where is your evidence that the seasonings that TB add are not "the amount reasonably required to accomplish its intended physical, nutritional, or other technical effect in food." Others have have stated that when creating their own versions of Taco filling at home that the quantities are about the same, 85-90% Beef, 10-15% water and seasonings.
 
SkeptiChick said:
Oats and "textured vegetable protein" are not interchangeable. :)
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For the record, I didn't say they were. Though its seems that one or the other - but not both - is required in commercial taco filling recipes. :-)

As an aside, I'm trying to imagine someone, confused by Taco Bell's advertising, going into a Taco Bell and trying to purchase "seasoned ground beef," expecting to use it to make hamburgers or whatever. I just can't see that happening .....

-- Roger
 
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jadebox said:
For the record, I didn't say they were. :-)

-- Roger
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Oh, i know. Just, given the amount of conflation going on in this thread by some people, i thought posting a clarifying statement to that effect was warranted. You know, just in case. :)
 
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