Syria and UN Security Council Decision

[HoverBoarder]

Sometimes it is scary to see how well propaganda works on some people, the same robotic dupes who verify nothing, trust what the news says, and admire any brute currently classified as "anti-dictator"


Like the Houla Massacre? I'll tell you about that one, and already have, in the other thread.

For good measure, since you went to the hassle of a point-by-point list, I'll spend more time than I should offering answers you'll ignore.


False premise question. The ones I haven't covered yet is not from a decision to ignore, but from constraints on time that force me to proritize.
Because IMO justice and peace are based on truth, not on upholding cherished myths we, as a culture, have talked ourselves irreversibly into. We've made that the basis for 3 years and absolute minimum 140,000 have died on all sides (I suspect it's really around 200,000)


You'd need to go case-by0-case, ideally. But I looked at the Halfaya bakery bombing.No proof there was a bakery, despite some flatbread, about a box's worth, and an empty box the right size. So it's food delivery, run by al-Nusra. I don't know who fired those mortar shells, but the angle of impact seems steep, suggesting nearbt, when all nearby areas were rebel-held. On the flip-side, there were very few civilians to blame Assad, and mostly rebel fighters seem to have been killed.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Halfaya_Bakery_Bombing

A lot of these happen in Aleppo, where it's well-known the rebels had imposed a strict food embargo on the loyalist areas. The bombing of bread lines and the sniper-shooting of people crossing over to get food, both play into the rebel strategy. And in general, just having something like the bombing of a bread queue to blame on Assad is reason enough for rebels to do it, as they did in Bosnia.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Siege_of_Aleppo

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Karaj_al-Hajez
See the Channel 4 video there and please try to pay attention to the context of what it shows.


No detailed study of the specific claims, bt I've heard these are areas where everything was ruined by fughting, after rebels dug themselves into civilian neighborhoods with foreign-supplied weapons, fighters, and political cover, and had to be pounded out. Should all re-building be done one building at a time? Or is it still legal to clear a whole area and start over? What proof did anyone provide this is not the explanation? Activists saying the house was fine and 'the regime' forced them out, and stomped on the koran along the way? Possible, not proven. Words are just that, and in this conflict, even less so.


No, I haven't and I'm not going through this 80-page report. You haven't either and you know that. In trade, I won't make you look at the pictures I just documented of three women killed, just a few miles north of Ma'an during the Feb. 9 massacre there, fleeing on a bus when the regime shelled it, they say. Rebels were closest at the time and scooped up the bodies (and the survivors, I presume - some 80 civilians are missing, authorities say) and one woman has a head sliced in half with a sword. So there, a shelling of civilians case you didn't even ask about, and an answer you can double check if you want.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Maan_Massacre,_2014#Al-Taman.27ah_Bus_Victims



http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Unseen_Snipers_in_the_Syrian_Conflict

And see the Karaj page, linked above. You say "a rebel held intersection used by civilians that is only receiving fire from a government held area" I have noot seen any of the fire yet, or figured out how to trace where it's coming from. I'm curious how you managed that? By believing the reports that just flat out say "regime snipers," without the slightest evidence?



http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Torture_Photos_from_"Caesar"

stub page:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Category_talk:Prisoners

There are a bunch of difficult questions I could ask you back about some truly horrific rebel crimes - like the Houla Massacre - we as a culture let them just fob off at will. But time still ticks. I'll just leave it to the ones I've already asked the whole community in the Houla thread. It could be said you owe me an answer, and even a fair and considered one, and in the right spot. But hey, I've got no power to collect even if so.

That was a... whole lot of handwaving...

I need a little more time for a detailed response to all of the problems with your post, but let me highlight a few of the main problems.

- bakeries- HRW visited 6 bakery in Allepo that were bombed during a three week timeframe in August, and interviewed witnesses on another 4 bombings. They also noted that activists at the time had documented 78 other bakery bombings. Those visits are well documented in just these three visits, and they include:

Human Rights Watch researchers visited six of the attacked bakeries and interviewed witnesses:
• Bakery in Maare, northern Aleppo, August 22;
• Bakery in Al-Bab, northeastern Aleppo, August 21 and 22;
• Aqyuol bakery in Bab al-Hadid, Aleppo city, August 21;
• Al-Zarra bakery in Qadi Askar, Aleppo city, August 16;
• Kanjou bakery, al-Maysar, Aleppo city, August 16;
• Bakery in al-Halwaniya, Aleppo city, August 16;

Human Rights Watch collected credible information about four other attacks:
• Bakery in Manbij, northern Aleppo, August 24;
• Hussein bakery in al-Qaterji, Aleppo city, August 16;
• Bakery in Tariq al-Bab, Aleppo city, August 10;
• Bakery in al-Sheikh Sa’id district, Aleppo city, August 11

detailed information on these attacks can be found here: Syria: Government Attacking Bread Lines . The response you gave of "they found a box" is by no means any sort of analysis of the facts at hand.

-neighborhood cleansings and demolitions-
Again, refusing to even look or consider the evidence. Click the link and look at the completely demolished neighborhoods. Where I live, areas that large would be classified as cities.

-deliberate bombings of civilians -
If you refuse to even scan the report, at least watch the video. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of interviews, videos, and documentation of this section of war crimes.

-deliberate targeting of civilians in Allepo -

The following videos show the locations of some of the regime snipers in the area.



Sniper fire coming from the regime side makes it impossible to blame on the rebels. It is simply not possible for a rebel army of snipers to sneak into regime held territory and snipe civilians every day.

The following map shows the location of the crossing.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bustan+Al+Qasr+aerial&ie=UTF-8&ei=qkADU-SdDtjboASimYHYCw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ

This is another Assad war crime that can be ignored, but cannot be hand waved away.

- Mass detainee torture/killing - No actual response from you on this one. The number of kidnapped people by the regime could be as high as 100,000. Including random women and children abducted off the street (I posted a long report on this issue a long time back showing innocent people including women being abducted). Who knows how many they have killed.

 

[HoverBoarder]

You obviously didn't read anything as you have no idea what I'm talking about, evidenced by your reference to "Maher and the 4th division". That was what turned out to be hogwash. You can try yourself at challenging the state of research (or educate yourself) over here. Good luck.

That was REALLY sad.

Do any know any CT people that actually buy into this? I didn't see any evidence except him making a lot of hypotheses and conjectures. He doesn't want to take into account any of the audio tapes because he just can't believe his hero the dictator could do it. It probably could have, maybe could have, been rebels cause he thinks it should. Followed by a lot of "here" links to more personal musings where he states that it probably could have been the rebels cause he thinks it should. His main "evidence" is based off of random guesses and ignored contradictory information about rocket details.

His saving grace is that he is nice to all of the CT heavy commenters on his blog. Given his inattention to facts and grand conclusions based on hypothesized conjectures that 'just must be true' in his mind, it is not surprising that his site is a magnet for the CT folks.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Again, refusing to even look or consider the evidence. Click the link and look at the completely demolished neighborhoods. Where I live, areas that large would be classified as cities.

Again refusing? You asked a question, I gave an answer, and asked one back, and you didn't answer. Again, to be ignored again, on what proof do we know these demolitions of large areas, in a war-ravaged country, were malicious in nature?

The Aleppo details, cool, you're engaging the material some. That's how you start. What's being alleged? Next is stuff like "how much sense does it make?" etc. but I figure you'll never be able to operate on that level. From that, I see an alleged, and probably true, week-long bakery-shelling spree, ahead of a visit by HRW. I'll note this stuff you provide as a starting point for this back burner project, and deal with it. Say I'm "ignoring it," "criminally negligent," a "robotic Assad dupe," whatever, dude.

Snipers video, yeah ... those are some tall places they point to and say there are snipers atop. It's proven that there are? Damn. Those tall places are in the regime area? Damn. And it's proven THE sniper file that killed specific civilians in specific incidents came from there? Damn. Autopsy results, angle of fire, all carefully examined? Damn.

See, dodger, if any of that was true/meant anything. I might say damn and not be sarcastic.

 

[Childlike Empress]

That was REALLY sad.

Do any know any CT people that actually buy into this?

Ct ... yadda yadda ... can't see anything .... CT .... yadda yadda...

Ya know, this wasn't the end of the discussion. Had you read upthread as I told you, you whould have known which kind of "CTs" "bought into it" and could have spared yourself this embarrasment.. EOD.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Also, dodger, in the links I gave (understandable if you didn't see everything at every one yet) it shows we know where the crossing is, and how people from loyalist areas were squeezed TO there by rebel sanctions, daily, to submit to whatever, including searches, sectarian insults, and mysterious sniper fire, just to get a handful of food - all they allow. Next round tomorrow, maybe get shot.

We know about the borderline, the puny Queiq river (named, people believe, for the sound of the frogs in the marshes where it peters out just south of town). We know about the bodies rebels kept finding in there, including a batch the regime timed to pop up on the same day as Martin Chulov's piece on the last batch was published - like a publicity stunt almost! One of those had clear rigor mortis still, had floated 3 km from the "park of death" in virtually still water, screened with wire at intervals, around 90-degree bends, in less than a day. Or, perhaps, he and the rest traveled mush less than that. We can't be 100% certain. Guess we should blame Assad?

Links I didn't give yet:

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Queiq_River_Massacre

And always check the talk pages

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Queiq_River_Massacre

Oh, and too many posts, so a note: CE, thanks for refreshing me on WhoGhouta. I hadn't seen it in a while, and it's come together. That each point is organized like this and links to the explanation, which is methodical and fair quality, as I've seen - superb. It's a feat. They did pan the FAE evidence, summarily I think. It might be wrong, but deserves better before I give it up. A few other quibbles, but really the best single thing to point to, aside from the McClatchy-promoted MIT-guys-study. Obama and Kerry and Hollande and all those phonies in London and Istanbul ... have already moved onto other accusations. It's a herd of dodgers, running the world pretty much.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Again refusing? You asked a question, I gave an answer, and asked one back, and you didn't answer. Again, to be ignored again, on what proof do we know these demolitions of large areas, in a war-ravaged country, were malicious in nature?

The Aleppo details, cool, you're engaging the material some. That's how you start. What's being alleged? Next is stuff like "how much sense does it make?" etc. but I figure you'll never be able to operate on that level. From that, I see an alleged, and probably true, week-long bakery-shelling spree, ahead of a visit by HRW. I'll note this stuff you provide as a starting point for this back burner project, and deal with it. Say I'm "ignoring it," "criminally negligent," a "robotic Assad dupe," whatever, dude.

Snipers video, yeah ... those are some tall places they point to and say there are snipers atop. It's proven that there are? Damn. Those tall places are in the regime area? Damn. And it's proven THE sniper file that killed specific civilians in specific incidents came from there? Damn. Autopsy results, angle of fire, all carefully examined? Damn.

See, dodger, if any of that was true/meant anything. I might say damn and not be sarcastic.

Oh, I gave an answer, it was the article itself. If you had just about any of it, it would have answered your questions.

I had prepared a long response, but than I just figured why bother. I don't think there is any evidence in the world that would change the blanket view for the side that you support. Evidence has nothing to do with your blind allegiance. You can support who you want to support, but it does not change the facts.

I am not going to say that the opposition is any kind of holier than thou option. Pretty much all of the opposition factions, including the FSA have carried out War Crimes. And honestly Syrians, and probably the rest of the world are better off with Assad than they would be if the hardcore Islamist Jihadists who make up the bulk of the opposition came to power. A democratically elected government that respected the rule of law and human rights would obviously be a better option, but neither side would ever allow that.

The problem is that both sides have been given free passes to carry out war crimes. Which sets a terrible precedent for future conflicts. Assad needs to stop purposefully killing civilians, and destroying neighborhoods. Stop bombing breadlines, stop carpet artillery bombing neighborhoods, stop repeatedly bombing hospitals, stop purposefully shooting civilians, stop dropping napalm on schools, etc.

The only way that is going to happen is if his allies put actual pressure on him, which will never happen as long as he is given a free pass to carry out whatever war crimes he wants to.


As for the two war crimes that I brought up that you asked questions on.

1. There is too much area for the entire city sized are to entirely be demolished. And if your goal is to protect the dictator from any evidence of war crimes, than destroying numerous whole city sized areas would in itself be a war crime. Which means that either way he is guilty.
   
2. As for the large number of snipers in Aleppo who have been shooting from government controlled areas into opposition controlled areas, and hitting motely children; you can see the civilians hiding behind barricades that protect them from the government controlled areas where the sniper fire is coming from. It is impossible that the opposition would be able to sneak snipers into government controlled areas in that large of numbers, and for that long. Which doesn't leave an option besides another case of regime war crimes in this case.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Ct ... yadda yadda ... can't see anything .... CT .... yadda yadda...

Ya know, this wasn't the end of the discussion. Had you read upthread as I told you, you whould have known which kind of "CTs" "bought into it" and could have spared yourself this embarrasment.. EOD.

Why give him a free pass just because he is on your side?

He includes many "here" links which state to have more evidence backing up his personal opinion, but are just more pages of him stating his personal opinion, or in some cases are exactly contradictory to the points he is making.

At the very end he notes all other analyses disagree with his opinions including Brown Moses, but that was OK, because he is just throwing out ideas to see what sticks.

There is a reason why almost all of the comments on his site are from CT heavy posters.

The evidence in this case still points towards Assad carrying out another chemical attack on his people.

 

[Childlike Empress]

A little preemptive update. The Syrian Solidarity Movement has issued an Alert! Open War Vs. Syria in the Offing? and describes some signs why they fear Syria could be in the news soon again.

Sunday the SAA finally took over the "rebel" central of Yabroud in the Qalamoun mountains next to the Lebanese border. You can see the current state of affairs here and check the chronology with the older versions of that map if you scroll down. Yes, that's the Lebanese Army, the Syrian Army and Hezbollah. After months of preparation, the take-over went surprisingly fast as it seems that the hardcore Islamists stood without any support of the locals left. A couple of thousands of them seem to be left and have fled up in the mountains now. Their main factory for booby-trapped cars to be sent to Lebanon was found in Yabroud today.

Aleppo is still difficult but also there is a tendency that the die-hards are isolated. In the rest of the country, the last weeks have seen a lot of reconciliation, groups of fighters laying down their arms and profit from the amnesty offers, in some regions collaborations between FSA and SAA runing checkpoints together - all in all light at the end of the tunnel. And presidential elections as scheduled in 2012 are coming closer.

So if some psychopaths want to sell you an escalation of any sorts, know that it will come at a point where the internal struggle is beginning to look like there finally is an opportunity for peace.

 

[Darth Rotor]

All Assad has to do now is to annex Lebanon, and he'll be like his dad AND like Vlad Putin, whose had his back for a while.

I love a happy ending, don't you?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Long overdue, thanks Mr. Kerry. Bashar Ja'afari summarized the other recent developments today at the UN.

 

[LSSBB]

Long overdue, thanks Mr. Kerry. Bashar Ja'afari summarized the other recent developments today at the UN.

That's funny, the WSJ sure has a different take.

Say, whatever happened with that supposed false flag gas attack? Pretty disappointing it must be to go to all that trouble and not invade, all you get is Assad agreeing to get rid of his chemical weapons, and of course dragging his feet on it.

That's OK, I'm sure you don't have an answer.

 

[JihadJane]

That's funny, the WSJ sure has a different take.

Say, whatever happened with that supposed false flag gas attack? Pretty disappointing it must be to go to all that trouble and not invade, all you get is Assad agreeing to get rid of his chemical weapons, and of course dragging his feet on it.

That's OK, I'm sure you don't have an answer.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


'The Red Line and the Rat Line
Seymour M. Hersh on Obama, Erdoğan and the Syrian rebels'

 

[Darth Rotor]

Was checking the news yesterday: did Mr Erdogan declare war on Syria? If he did, I missed it.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Was checking the news yesterday: did Mr Erdogan declare war on Syria? If he did, I missed it.

No, he didn't declare war. But lately he occasionally claimed a state of war as fact to justify his criminal acts.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No, he didn't declare war. But lately he occasionally claimed a state of war as fact to justify his criminal acts.

His criminal acts being ... what?

Please list. The air-to-air engagement was legit. (And IMO payback for that F-4 shot down a couple of years ago ... )

 

[Childlike Empress]

I suggest you read the Hersh article Jane linked for a start. Most but not all of it was known long ago and you could have read it in my countless posts on that topic throughout the thread. Or for the latest, google "Kessab Kardashian"

 

[Darth Rotor]

I suggest you read the Hersh article Jane linked for a start. Most but not all of it was known long ago and you could have read it in my countless posts on that topic throughout the thread. Or for the latest, google "Kessab Kardashian"

Hersh is a less than credible source. I noted his shrill CT over Baluchistan a few years ago, which once again looks to be ... oversold by old Seymour. Why would I buy into his ax grinding now? The way I read Erdogan's bellicose talk is in part for domestic consumption, and a bit of attempted misdirection. Critics of him, in his own government, seem to recognize this and have been cited in various sources as saying so. So, Erdogan's "crimes" if you'll give me the top three, or the top five, I'll bounce against what his domestic critics and some other folks observe. There was a disturbing recording released a week or so ago purported to be some high level ministers and a general discussing an op, even a frame up job, on that small bit of Turkish soil in Syria (a monument/memorial).

Some took that as a CT. Sounded to me like a brain storming session, if it was them, but I will grant that as a brain storming session, it went into some disturbing areas. Hersh mentions that late in his article.

I found a few obvious errors of fact in the linked article, I'll point out two here:
1. Just how many B-2's does Hersh think the US has?

The American decision to end CIA support of the weapons shipments into Syria left Erdoğan exposed politically and militarily. ‘One of the issues at that May summit was the fact that Turkey is the only avenue to supply the rebels in Syria,’ the former intelligence official said. ‘It can’t come through Jordan because the terrain in the south is wide open and the Syrians are all over it. And it can’t come through the valleys and hills of Lebanon – you can’t be sure who you’d meet on the other side.’ Without US military support for the rebels, the former intelligence official said, ‘Erdoğan’s dream of having a client state in Syria is evaporating and he thinks we’re the reason why. When Syria wins the war, he knows the rebels are just as likely to turn on him – where else can they go? So now he will have thousands of radicals in his backyard.’

Has Hersh ever heard of a place called Iraq? It shares a border with Syria.

Some of Hersh's sources look a lot like 'Seymour is making stuff up again' and some may be credible. Mixed bag. Some of his analysis is sensible, some risible.

Why do you and Jihad Jane treat it like Gospel?

Please advise.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I don't treat it as gospel, quite the contrary. I gave it as a starting point for you because I certainly don't care to do your homework, DR, as you hang around long enough here to have read a ton of my posts about the Turkish "rat line" from the very beginning of this thread in early 2012, when several sources had already disclosed it. Not to speak of the blatant violations of Syrian sovereignty by the assistance to the worst of the worse "rebel" elements in their assaults not only on Ras Al-Ayn and most recently Kessab (did you google that?) from Turkish territory.

As to the Hersh article, in regards to the "rat line" I don't buy Hersh when he claims that the US stopped supporting it after whatshisname was killed in Benghazi, and in regards to the Ghouta incident I think Hersh downplays the role of Saudi Arabia and the knowledge the US had. All in all it seems like a limited hangout he is famous for, with focus on whitewashing Obama - including a tall tale about the secret super-heavy decapitating strike he was planning, a detail designed to show the hawks what a tough guy he is -, and on the other hand blaming-it-all on Erdogan who has fallen from the Empire's grace lately.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I don't treat it as gospel, quite the contrary. I gave it as a starting point for you because I certainly don't care to do your homework, DR, as you hang around long enough here to have read a ton of my posts about the Turkish "rat line" from the very beginning of this thread in early 2012, when several sources had already disclosed it. Not to speak of the blatant violations of Syrian sovereignty by the assistance to the worst of the worse "rebel" elements in their assaults not only on Ras Al-Ayn and most recently Kessab (did you google that?) from Turkish territory.

As to the Hersh article, in regards to the "rat line" I don't buy Hersh when he claims that the US stopped supporting it after whatshisname was killed in Benghazi, and in regards to the Ghouta incident I think Hersh downplays the role of Saudi Arabia and the knowledge the US had. All in all it seems like a limited hangout he is famous for, with focus on whitewashing Obama - including a tall tale about the secret super-heavy decapitating strike he was planning, a detail designed to show the hawks what a tough guy he is -, and on the other hand blaming-it-all on Erdogan who has fallen from the Empire's grace lately.

Exactly. It's not like this is a brand-new notion Hersh could have just invented. You've been following that aspect pretty closely, I've noticed. Me, not so much, aside from seeing a lot of what you've brought up. That's puts you in the good position you know you're in to assess what Hersh has to say on this subject. I also share you suspicion over his simplification of some points and narrative-building. He's got some spin in there for sure.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Not to speak of the blatant violations of Syrian sovereignty by the assistance to the worst of the worse "rebel" elements in their assaults not only on Ras Al-Ayn and most recently Kessab (did you google that?) from Turkish territory.

Not buying Erdogan being behind gas attacks.
Such other "crimes" I'll note as being in the eye of the beholder. Turkey, regardless of who is top dog in a given year, is not interested in the trouble in Syria crossing into Turkey. They established a precedent of cross border ops into Iraq a decade ago with their own security as a valid pretext. I see no reason for them to not do that into the border regions of Syria if that is an effort to control the bleed over from Syria into Turkey. Also find it rational, if not admirable, to decide who to back in a given civil war. Russia backed Assad. A lot of local regional folks didn't. There are no clean hands here.

The mess to do with who is fighting Assad, and who is providing support, is a multi-party political farce, but the reason I am not laughing is the body count it has produced.