Sustainable Fuels

[dirtywick]

This is certainly a hypothesis.

yeah

 

[Olmstead]

It's insignificant to global climate change. What would be significant to global climate change is vast swaths of the global middle class taking the issue seriously and making significant personal sacrifices of their lifestyles. Which they will never do, no matter how many boats and jets the billionaires give up. It's all just an excuse for average people to do nothing without feeling too guilty about it.

As opposed to not feeling too guilty about it via a display of smart-ass phlegmatism.

 

[acbytesla]

i agree, we must all sacrifice so they can continue their lavish lifestyle is a loser imo

Save the Rich. I hear they're thinking about holding a telethon.

 

[Orphia Nay]

It's insignificant to global climate change. What would be significant to global climate change is vast swaths of the global middle class taking the issue seriously and making significant personal sacrifices of their lifestyles. Which they will never do, no matter how many boats and jets the billionaires give up. It's all just an excuse for average people to do nothing without feeling too guilty about it.

This is already happening in a large part of the world.

It's America who's the worst at this, and they're 4% of the world's population, but they're doing a great deal of the damage.

 

[acbytesla]

This is already happening in a large part of the world.

It's America who's the worst at this, and they're 4% of the world's population, but they're doing a great deal of the damage.

It starts with investing in transit. Whether it is commuter rail lines, light rail, bus rapid transit, people will reduce driving if they have affordable, reliable and comfortable transit alternatives. It will never be a fit for everyone and every location. But it makes a huge dent Add in EVs electric bikes and safe commuter bike trails. People love their cars because it provides freedom. But the more densely urban it is, the car is a hassle.

I'm a believer in NOT asking people to sacrifice. I'm convinced they won't do it. Give them attractive alternatives. They won't think of it as a sacrifice. High speed trains would be great. But that's insanely expensive. But there are ways of making 110 mph trains, preferably electric a reliable and very attractive alternative. (That isn't considered high speed). Most of Europe has this. And outside of the LGV they are not high speed trains. That the Cascade corridor from Vancouver BC to Salem even Eugene isn't electrified is absurd. There are 20 direct jet flights from Seattle to Portland daily carrying on average 150 passengers. There are 6 trains between Seattle and Portland. But many thousands of cars with single passengers make that trip. Electrify that right away, give Amtrak trains priority over freight and improve the stations and ridership would skyrocket.
There should be at least 20 trains a day running every 30 minutes between these two big cities.

 

[Orphia Nay]

There are many ways to do it. In this thread, I'm interested in one particular way, creating sustainable fuel.

In particular at the moment, I'm interested in ARAMCO and F1's claim that their sustainable fuel will be in 1.2 of the world's 1.5 billion cars by 2030, and how "sustainable" it will actually be.

I'm wondering if they have, or will, publish any studies backing this claim up.

 

[Orphia Nay]

The technical term for the above is bovine excrement. If only we could power the world on that...

Sustainable fuels set to be used in F1 in 2026 are already powering the FIA Formula 2 and Formula 3 Championships.

The ‘important’ lessons F1 is learning from the development of sustainable fuels in F2 and F3 ahead of 2026 | Formula 1®

Innovation in Formula 1 goes beyond the looks of the cars and, with looming regulation changes on the horizon, fuels are becoming an ever-increasing focus for teams and power unit manufacturers in the chase for performance.

www.formula1.com

Given the waste and polution generated by and corruption in F1, the type and source of fuel in the cars is probably very low down on the list of things that would need to change to make it even slightly closer to being a net positive for humanity.

Indeed, fuel use by F1 cars is 1% of F1's carbon footprint, but they are aiming to be fully net zero overall by 2030. We shall see, of course.

 

[acbytesla]

There are many ways to do it. In this thread, I'm interested in one particular way, creating sustainable fuel.

In particular at the moment, I'm interested in ARAMCO and F1's claim that their sustainable fuel will be in 1.2 of the world's 1.5 billion cars by 2030, and how "sustainable" it will actually be..

I'm wondering if they have, or will, publish any studies backing this claim up.

I don't buy that biofuels of any kind can ever be cost competitive. If that is what you mean by sustainable fuels.

The best cost competitive biofuel is ethanol. And it sucks. It creates as much CO2 as petroleum. Farms should be growing food not corn for ethanol. Ethanol is a ticking time bomb for America's agriculture industry. Hydrogen isn't really a decent alternative since most ot is produced by reforming petroleum. Also true for Amonia. Both are just as polluting as burning gasoline. Algae right now costs 3 to 5 times as much. . But electricity can be more than cost competitive. I am constantly reading articles about alternative energy At least 80 percent of those articles are hype. But I have watched as solar and wind has changed the world. I am thoroghly convincecd (based on what I know) that EVs will eventually have 80% market share if not 90% or higher.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I don't buy that biofuels of any kind can ever be cost competitive. If that is what you mean by sustainable fuels.

The best cost competitive biofuel is ethanol. And it sucks. It creates as much CO2 as petroleum. Farms should be growing food not corn for ethanol. Ethanol is a ticking time bomb for America's agriculture industry. Hydrogen isn't really a decent alternative since most ot is produced by reforming petroleum. Also true for Amonia. Both are just as polluting as burning gasoline. Algae right now costs 3 to 5 times as much. . But electricity can be more than cost competitive. I am constantly reading articles about alternative energy At least 80 percent of those articles are hype. But I have watched as solar and wind has changed the world. I am thoroghly convincecd (based on what I know) that EVs will eventually have 80% market share if not 90% or higher.

I've been reading reports (some of the links I've posted) that say F1's fuel will come from biowaste, hydrogen, ethanol, algae etc. plus there's the 50% electrical energy recovery component.

 

[acbytesla]

I've been reading reports (some of the links I've posted) that say F1's fuel will come from biowaste, hydrogen, ethanol, algae etc. plus there's the 50% electrical energy recovery component.

I'm highly skeptical. Any alternative to gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, kerosene has to pollute less and must be cost competitive. If they can do that, great. But unless what I've been reading is wrong, it's hype. And given this is being pumped by an oil company, I'm 90% percent sure it's BS. Aramco is Saudi Arabia.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I'm highly skeptical. Any alternative to gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, kerosene has to pollute less and must be cost competitive. If they can do that, great. But unless what I've been reading is wrong, it's hype. And given this is being pumped by an oil company, I'm 90% percent sure it's BS. Aramco is Saudi Arabia.

Then I'm sure it will surprise you to know Saudi Arabia is very big on the environment.

Information About Saudi Green Initiative

Saudi & Middle East Green Initiatives

www.sgi.gov.sa

I remembered reading years ago about a high prince in SA becoming very green-conscious.

Though their aim is net zero by 2060, not 2050.

 

[acbytesla]

Then I'm sure it will surprise you to know Saudi Arabia is very big on the environment.

Information About Saudi Green Initiative

Saudi & Middle East Green Initiatives

www.sgi.gov.sa

I remembered reading years ago about a high prince in SA becoming very green-conscious.

Though their aim is net zero by 2060, not 2050.

If you believe that, I know a President that's just right for you. That's the talk from them. Sure.There is all kinds of alternative energy pub from oil companies. I'm convinced they're as interested in alternative fuels as John Wayne would be interested in Nathan Lane. It's smoke and mirrors. That the so called sustainable fuels is algae based and cost three times petroleum should tell you this is smoke and mirror. Look at us, we're not trying to sell you billions of barrels of oil.

 

[Orphia Nay]

If you believe that, I know a President that's just right for you. That's the talk from them. Sure.There is all kinds of alternative energy pub from oil companies. I'm convinced they're as interested in alternative fuels as John Wayne would be interested in Nathan Lane. It's smoke and mirrors. That the so called sustainable fuels is algae based and cost three times petroleum should tell you this is smoke and mirror. Look at us, we're not trying to sell you billions of barrels of oil.

Whether it will happen, neither you or I know. I'm just pointing out that information.

 

[Rolfe]

I see this as just another way to keep making, selling, servicing, maintaining and repairing internal combustion engines, which has been a nice little earner for these guys for a century or more. Hopefully it's all too late. I had to trawl round my immediate neighbourhood yesterday looking for a lost cat collar, and I was gobsmacked by the number of houses with home chargers and cars with green-striped number-plates. And that's before the really tasty grants coming up for people in rural Scotland to buy used EVs have come on stream.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I'm just saying, it's not about climate change.

We have to work with the humans we've got and not the humans you'd like to have.

Therefore, if we want the vast majority of humans in the developed world to make a sacrifice to reduce their CO2 emissions, those with the most must be prepared to bring their CO2 emissions down to at least the same order of magnitude as those of everyone else.

I don't think they will and the actual path humanity will take is going to be very violent. The seeds are being sown now and the early signs are visible: Accelerating flows of wealth from poor and middle class to the ultra-wealthy; Shift to the right of all political parties; The rise of far-right political parties and politicians; Demonisation of migrants and poor people; Countries rearming. Once the stress from our over-consumption kicks in (e.g., degraded soils, microplastics, ocean ecosystem collapse, droughts, etc.), that's when the wars will start to rage.

The billionaires will be able to watch all the hungry, hate-fueled humans fighting for resources from the windows of their private jets and on the decks of their yachts and think: "If only I could have done something to stop this".

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I see this as just another way to keep making, selling, servicing, maintaining and repairing internal combustion engines, which has been a nice little earner for these guys for a century or more. Hopefully it's all too late. I had to trawl round my immediate neighbourhood yesterday looking for a lost cat collar, and I was gobsmacked by the number of houses with home chargers and cars with green-striped number-plates. And that's before the really tasty grants coming up for people in rural Scotland to buy used EVs have come on stream.

It'll be much more peaceful when the young men living-their-life-one-village-bypass-at-a-time go electric!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

There are many ways to do it. In this thread, I'm interested in one particular way, creating sustainable fuel.

In particular at the moment, I'm interested in ARAMCO and F1's claim that their sustainable fuel will be in 1.2 of the world's 1.5 billion cars by 2030, and how "sustainable" it will actually be.

I'm wondering if they have, or will, publish any studies backing this claim up.

It won't be sustainable if scaled for use in 1.2 billion cars.

 

[acbytesla]

Whether it will happen, neither you or I know. I'm just pointing out that information.

And that's fine. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe, I'm just being a cynic. But I believe I can recognize marketing bs when I see it.

 

[Rolfe]

I entirely agree. It's very similar to what we've seen surrounding hydrogen, which always was a batcrap crazy idea but has been hyped and marketed to the skies as the answer to everything - all because it will prolong the use of petroleum products as fuel, and in one version of the tale it also perpetuates the ICE itself. The people whose business models rely on ICE technology and burning petroleum products will not let these go without a fight, and damn the planet. Consumers must be steered/frightened away from these cars which don't use the ICE and don't burn stuff. Regardless of the amount of money said consumers would save.

The fact is that the ICE is no longer needed as a mass power generation device. We can see that it was always a stop-gap while battery technology was developed to allow the electric motor to drive vehicles at desirable speeds for a desirable distance before needing to refuel. The ICE is becoming the God of the Gaps, and the gaps are getting smaller every year.

 

[acbytesla]

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