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Sustainable Fuels

theprestige said:
Yeah, I don't know about need either. But let's not kid ourselves: When we talk about billionaires giving up their superyachts, we're not talking about saving the planet. We're talking about not liking their billionaire excesses.

Which is fine with me. I'm in favor of reducing emissions. I find billionaire excess ethically dubious.
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Maybe we are. It's about setting an example. Those superyachts and private jets consume a lot of fuel and pump out a lot of CO2 in both their manufacture and operation.

When Paul Allen who donated millions of dollars to environmental causes owned not one, but 4 boats over 200 feet in length, the largest which The Octopus was 414 feet in length, the second largest whicb was 300 feet long tells me I need to sacrifice I roll my eyes.

I've been on Paul Allen's super yacht The Octopus. I sold some of the electronics to a company that refit it with all new electronics. Most amazing toy I have ever seen. Nothing comes close. It is also the greatest symbol of extravagance and selfishness you could imagine. It takes up more space in the marina than you could possibly imagine and Allen used it maybe 15 days a year. In the meantime a small boat owner can't get a slip and he's a live aboard.
 
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acbytesla said:
Maybe we are. It's about setting an example. Those superyachts and private jets consume a lot of fuel and pump out a lot of CO2 in both their manufacture and operation.

When Paul Allen who donated millions of dollars to environmental causes owned not one, but 4 boats over 200 feet in length, the largest which was 414 feet in length tells me I need to sacrifice I roll my eyes.

I've been on Paul Allen's super yacht The Octopus. I sold some of the electronics to a company that refit it with all new electronics. Most amazing toy I have ever seen. Nothing comes close. It is also the greatest symbol of extravagance and selfishness you could imagine. It takes up more space in the marina than you could possibly imagine and Allen used it maybe 15 days a year. In the meantime a small boat owner can't get a slip and he's a live aboard.
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I think that in the context of global climate change, the concern about wasteful billionaire emissions is misplaced.

The people who need to set an example are those of us who celebrated school strike for climate. Millions of middle-class families in developed countries, all making a real sacrifice of their consumption, their lifestyle, would set the kind of example the rest of the world needs to see. Paul Allen making a show of Going Ascetic won't make a dent in global emissions. Millions of Americans and millions of Europeans making a show of giving up cars, giving up travel, giving up high-speed internet and cheap drop-shipped goods, giving up 90% of the middle-class luxuries we all take for granted, would make a dent and send a message. It would also beggar Paul Allen.
 
theprestige said:
The ultimatum game seems to me to have nothing at all to do with saving the planet by reducing billionaire emissions, and everything to do with not liking their excessive lifestyles.
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It indicates that actual humans will not tolerate gross unfairness, even to their own detriment. So if we want to save the planet ourselves we better ask for what are percieved as fair sacrifices from everyone. Individual CO2 emmissions are the pie. Billionaires will need to give up A LOT of pie for average people to accept a smaller piece of pie.
 
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theprestige said:
I think that in the context of global climate change, the concern about wasteful billionaire emissions is misplaced.

The people who need to set an example are those of us who celebrated school strike for climate. Millions of middle-class families in developed countries, all making a real sacrifice of their consumption, their lifestyle, would set the kind of example the rest of the world needs to see. Paul Allen making a show of Going Ascetic won't make a dent in global emissions. Millions of Americans and millions of Europeans making a show of giving up cars, giving up travel, giving up high-speed internet and cheap drop-shipped goods, giving up 90% of the middle-class luxuries we all take for granted, would make a dent and send a message. It would also beggar Paul Allen.
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I'm not going to argue that real change doesn't require the involvement of millions even billions of people. That is a given. But Noblesse oblige is also required. The idea that just because one has money he is absolved of responsibility to society is obscene. Why should I not take a vacation or buy two cars when those pigs clearly thinks sacrifice doesn't mean them?
 
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Ivor the Engineer said:
It indicates that actual humans will not tolerate gross unfairness, even to their own detriment. So if we want to save the planet ourselves we better ask for what are percieved as fair sacrifices from everyone. Individual CO2 emmissions are the pie. Billionaires will need to give up A LOT of pie for average people to accept a smaller piece of pie.
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The narrative that average people won't want to make impactful sacrifices, to save the planet and themselves, until billionaires first make an insignificant symbolic sacrifice, is counter-productive.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not going to argue that real change doesn't require the involvement of millions even billions of people. That is a given. But Noblesse oblige is also required. The idea that just because one has money he is absolved of responsibility to society is obscene. Why should I not take a vacation or buy two cars when those pigs clearly thinks sacrifice doesn't mean them?
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This is exactly what I'm talking about, when I say this isn't about reducing emissions to save the planet, it's about sticking it to wasteful billionaires.
 
theprestige said:
This is exactly what I'm talking about, when I say this isn't about reducing emissions to save the planet, it's about sticking it to wasteful billionaires.
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I love that expression. "Sticking it to the billionaires."

Sending an immigrant to "Aligator Alcatraz" and then shipping them off to oblivion or denying someone healthcare, or taking away someone's job might qualify as sticking it to them. Not saying billionaires should do without super yachts or 767s.
 
acbytesla said:
I love that expression. "Sticking it to the billionaires."

Sending an immigrant to "Aligator Alcatraz" and then shipping them off to oblivion or denying someone healthcare, or taking away someone's job might qualify as sticking it to them. Not saying billionaires should do without super yachts or 767s.
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I'm just saying, it's not about climate change.
 
dirtywick said:
it can be both
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I don't think so.

Formula 1 looking into sustainable fuels because they don't want to lose fans, and also because a lot of the people that work on these cars probably have some amount of social consciousness, can be both.

Airlines making a show of looking into SAF can be both.

People saying billionaires have to set a good example by making an insignificant lifestyle change can't, in my opinion. It's literally a complaint that these people aren't signaling sufficient virtue.
 
theprestige said:
I'm just saying, it's not about climate change.
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It might not be just about climate change.. But if you want a buy-in from society as a whole, you can't have the most influential and most privileged being above it all.
 
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theprestige said:
People saying billionaires have to set a good example by making an insignificant lifestyle change can't, in my opinion. It's literally a complaint that these people aren't signaling sufficient virtue.
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Giving up super yachts and large private aircraft is hardly insignificant change. It signifies that the issue is being taken seriously.
 
acbytesla said:
Giving up super yachts and large private aircraft is hardly insignificant change. It signifies that the issue is being taken seriously.
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It's insignificant to global climate change. What would be significant to global climate change is vast swaths of the global middle class taking the issue seriously and making significant personal sacrifices of their lifestyles. Which they will never do, no matter how many boats and jets the billionaires give up. It's all just an excuse for average people to do nothing without feeling too guilty about it.
 
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it’s not insignificant because saying they’re allowed to live in excess while you are not and you must lead the way while the people with the time and means to actually effect change will do nothing isn’t a coherent message
 
theprestige said:
I don't think so.

Formula 1 looking into sustainable fuels because they don't want to lose fans, and also because a lot of the people that work on these cars probably have some amount of social consciousness, can be both.

Airlines making a show of looking into SAF can be both.

People saying billionaires have to set a good example by making an insignificant lifestyle change can't, in my opinion. It's literally a complaint that these people aren't signaling sufficient virtue.
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check this out:

the people most able to make that sacrifice who also happen to be the most visible examples of humanities excesses that are destroying the planet are the best place to start.

also ◊◊◊◊ them they’re ◊◊◊◊

see it’s not that hard to square those two concepts up
 
theprestige said:
It's insignificant to global climate change. What would be significant to global climate change is vast swaths of the global middle class taking the issue seriously and making significant personal sacrifices of their lifestyles. Which they will never do, no matter how many boats and jets the billionaires give up. It's all just an excuse for average people to do nothing without feeling too guilty about it.
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I'm sorry. I disagree. It's damn significant if you want anyone to buy in to it. There is zero chance that the masses will make significant changes in their lifestyle when the very privileged won't make almost insignificant, but very visible changes to theirs.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm sorry. I disagree. It's damn significant if you want anyone to buy in to it. There is zero chance that the masses will make significant changes in their lifestyle when the very privileged won't make almost insignificant, but very visible changes to theirs.
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i agree, we must all sacrifice so they can continue their lavish lifestyle is a loser imo
 
dirtywick said:
check this out:

the people most able to make that sacrifice who also happen to be the most visible examples of humanities excesses that are destroying the planet are the best place to start.

also ◊◊◊◊ them they’re ◊◊◊◊

see it’s not that hard to square those two concepts up
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acbytesla said:
I'm sorry. I disagree. It's damn significant if you want anyone to buy in to it. There is zero chance that the masses will make significant changes in their lifestyle when the very privileged won't make almost insignificant, but very visible changes to theirs.
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This is certainly a hypothesis.
 
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