Sustainable Fuels

[jeremyp]

Nonsense.

You're going to replace your car with another car at some point.

This is the assumption that renders your argument false.

There's no reason why the majority* of people need a car of their own and cars (electric or otherwise) are generally a blight on our living environment. We need to ween ourselves off these monumentally wasteful machines (full disclosure: yes, I do own a car).

It shouldn't be a choice between electric or ICE cars; it should be a choice between cars and other forms of transport. We should be planning a future with many fewer cars on the roads.

* No, I'm not arguing that cars should be banned outright. There are people who genuinely need cars but most of us do not, at least not most of the time.

 

[Puppycow]

There's fuel production from algae, which doesn't use land. It can also use water that isn't useful for drinking or agriculture, like salt aquifers, seawater, and wastewater.

Algae fuel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, that's ideal. However, according to the article:

These fuels have no practical significance but remain an aspirational target in the biofuels research area.

It does inevitably involve some land use, but it may not need to be arable land, so it wouldn't necessarily displace farms for food. Algae also grows in the sea but that would involve other challenges.

 

[theprestige]

According to Wikipedia, sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) has about the same energy density as petrochemical aviation fuel, but is three times more expensive and accounts for about 1% of the market. One of the cited obstacles to further expansion of the SAF scheme is competition with food growers for suitable land. This makes me think that we're probably nowhere near on track for Net Zero 2050.

---

I also have questions about what "sustainable" is supposed to mean, in this context.

To me, it means full self-sufficiency of the entire production process. I.e., once you get it going, it sustains itself. Something like this:

• You grow enough biofuel to power the entire agricultural process. Sowing, watering, fertilizing, harvesting, storing - all powered by the of the fuel you're growing. This includes things like the collection, transportation, storage, and distribution of water. The production, etc. of fertilizer. The manufacture and operation of farm equipment.
• AND you grow enough additional biofuel to power whatever industry you intend to be sustainably bio-fueled.

So when someone says "sustainable aviation fuel", I wonder how close you actually are to having a biofuel plantation that pays for itself, with enough left over to fuel the entire aviation industry.

I suspect that's not what most people mean by "sustainable" fuel, though.

Caveat: While nuclear is not strictly "sustainable" in my view, supplanting biofuel with nuclear power to make the entire scheme self-sufficient would satisfy me.

---

Tangentially, it seems to me that we have approximately three main sources of energy available to us:

1. Solar energy - sustainable over human timeframes.
2. Tectonically-stored biomass - the so-called "fossil" fuels.
3. Supernova fallout - the radioisotopes.

 

[ahhell]

Nonsense.

You're going to replace your car with another car at some point. On average, new car buyers own that vehicle for 8.4 years. Manufacturing of both ICE and EVs are both energy intensive. Average lifespan of a car before it shows up in a wrecking yard is
12 to 15 years or 200,000 miles.
And the fact is that electric motors are far more durable than internal combustion engines. There's a lot more to a car than the engine slash motor. So there is more to it than this. The battery's lifespan is the biggest EV concern. And this has been holding them back in replacing ICE vehicles. But every year it is less so. Right now, EVs make up 20% of new car sales. I bet that number will reach 40% by 2032. Trump's policies will slow adoption in the US but will have little effect elsewhere.

And the oil companies are crapping their pants because of this.

Really, even modern cars? I would figured about 50% longer than that.

Battery lifespan and range/charging time are both holding them back. Yes, for a daily commuter, EV is fine for 90% of people but anyone that drives for work or wants to take the occasional weekend away from home is going to avoid EVs. Or as I'm about to rent a car, no way will I rent an EV. I'm going somwhere where I have no idea where the chargers are. I'm not going to take that chance. So, for now, hybrids are the better choice for anyone that only has one car or rentals and commercial vehicles. Or standardize the batteries and turn gas stations into battery swapping stations. That would solve most of the stuff holding back EVs.

Most of the oil companies are already diversifying, sure they don't want to but the are in business and can see what's coming. I think they've gotten past the pants crapping stage and have moved on to dealing with it. Not eagerly to be sure.

As to sustainable fuels, we have a long way to go. In theory its possible but as others have pointed out, if remains relatively expensive and compete for space with food, seems unlikely to have much use other than possibly aviation and motor sports. Because let's be honest, EV's don't have the same appeal as an engine that roars.

 

[acbytesla]

This is the assumption that renders your argument false.

There's no reason why the majority* of people need a car of their own and cars (electric or otherwise) are generally a blight on our living environment. We need to ween ourselves off these monumentally wasteful machines (full disclosure: yes, I do own a car).

It shouldn't be a choice between electric or ICE cars; it should be a choice between cars and other forms of transport. We should be planning a future with many fewer cars on the roads.

* No, I'm not arguing that cars should be banned outright. There are people who genuinely need cars but most of us do not, at least not most of the time.

While I dont think everyone "requires" a 3 ton vehicle. Personal transportation has the ability to change lives. You don't require "personal" transportation if you live in a dense metropolis like New York where there is adequate public transportation. I even liked not owning a car. But it is severely limiting. And there's the rub. If I own a car I am free to accept employment anywhere. Personal transportation equals freedom.

 

[ahhell]

While I dont think everyone "requires" a 3 ton vehicle. Personal transportation has the ability to change lives. You don't require "personal" transportation if you live in a dense metropolis like New York where there is adequate public transportation. I even liked not owning a car. But it is severely limiting. And there's the rub. If I own a car I am free to accept employment anywhere. Personal transportation equals freedom.

That falls into the it's basically an impossible hurdle to convince folks to sacrifice quality of life. Folks used to own a personal vehicle, aren't going to willing give them up, for the most part. Car sharing services might make that argument viable for some but like you say, personal transportation gives you options.

I would not have my current job if I didn't own a car.

 

[dirtywick]

Really, even modern cars? I would figured about 50% longer than that.

Battery lifespan and range/charging time are both holding them back. Yes, for a daily commuter, EV is fine for 90% of people but anyone that drives for work or wants to take the occasional weekend away from home is going to avoid EVs. Or as I'm about to rent a car, no way will I rent an EV. I'm going somwhere where I have no idea where the chargers are. I'm not going to take that chance. So, for now, hybrids are the better choice for anyone that only has one car or rentals and commercial vehicles. Or standardize the batteries and turn gas stations into battery swapping stations. That would solve most of the stuff holding back EVs.

Most of the oil companies are already diversifying, sure they don't want to but the are in business and can see what's coming. I think they've gotten past the pants crapping stage and have moved on to dealing with it. Not eagerly to be sure.

As to sustainable fuels, we have a long way to go. In theory its possible but as others have pointed out, if remains relatively expensive and compete for space with food, seems unlikely to have much use other than possibly aviation and motor sports. Because let's be honest, EV's don't have the same appeal as an engine that roars.

the climate the car is in has a massive influence on it's lifespan. and with regards to that, an ev will rust and corrode just the same as ice cars do.

 

[Thermal]

While I dont think everyone "requires" a 3 ton vehicle. Personal transportation has the ability to change lives. You don't require "personal" transportation if you live in a dense metropolis like New York where there is adequate public transportation. I even liked not owning a car. But it is severely limiting. And there's the rub. If I own a car I am free to accept employment anywhere. Personal transportation equals freedom.

This. Step outside a metropolis, and you need wheels to do anything at all. People often underestimate how personal vehicles revolutionized society.

I'm a construction guy. I live in a city (every freaking county in my state is designated urban, so hard to avoid). I couldn't function at all without my vehicle and others who have to show up at different jobs it's every couple days with tools and equipment. Ain't happening on a bus or bike.

 

[acbytesla]

Really, even modern cars? I would figured about 50% longer than that.

I would think so too. But that's what a Google search came up with. But when I think about it, I have bought a lot of cars where I was the last owner..Only two made it past 250K in total miles.

Battery lifespan and range/charging time are both holding them back. Yes, for a daily commuter, EV is fine for 90% of people but anyone that drives for work or wants to take the occasional weekend away from home is going to avoid EVs. Or as I'm about to rent a car, no way will I rent an EV. I'm going somwhere where I have no idea where the chargers are. I'm not going to take that chance. So, for now, hybrids are the better choice for anyone that only has one car or rentals and commercial vehicles. Or standardize the batteries and turn gas stations into battery swapping stations. That would solve most of the stuff holding back EVs.

I am not a fan of most hybrids. Hard on the combustion engines and they are complex and expensive to maintain.

Most of the oil companies are already diversifying, sure they don't want to but the are in business and can see what's coming. I think they've gotten past the pants crapping stage and have moved on to dealing with it. Not eagerly to be sure.

No, they're still crapping their pants. They are fighting the movement to alternative energy every way possible. Mostly politically. They almost certainly know they can't prevent the inevitable, but I do believe they are trying to delay it.

As to sustainable fuels, we have a long way to go. In theory its possible but as others have pointed out, if remains relatively expensive and compete for space with food, seems unlikely to have much use other than possibly aviation and motor sports. Because let's be honest, EV's don't have the same appeal as an engine that roars.

.Anything that's not cost competitive is a non-starter.

 

[Thermal]

I would think so too. But that's what a Google search came up with. But when I think about it, I have bought a lot of cars where I was the last owner..Only two made it past 250K in total miles.

My last utility van had 319k on it when I drove it into the junkyard with a valid inspection sticker on the windsheild, collected $350 for it and was on my way. My current has 278k and still starts on the first bump (knock wood). I've never even changed the oil on any vehicle in my adult life that I recall. Point being, when a vehicle is "done" is highly subjective.

 

[acbytesla]

This. Step outside a metropolis, and you need wheels to do anything at all. People often underestimate how personal vehicles revolutionized society.

I'm a construction guy. I live in a city (every freaking county in my state is designated urban, so hard to avoid). I couldn't function at all without my vehicle and others who have to show up at different jobs it's every couple days with tools and equipment.
Ain't happening on a bus or bike.

No, it's not. I don't see personal transportation going away. And definitely not for the average construction worker.

 

[acbytesla]

My last utility van had 319k on it when I drove it into the junkyard with a valid inspection sticker on the windsheild, collected $350 for it and was on my way. My current has 278k and still starts on the first bump (knock wood). I've never even changed the oil on any vehicle in my adult life that I recall. Point being, when a vehicle is "done" is highly subjective.

How is that possible? I personally change the oil on my cars. About every 5,000 miles. I also change the brake pads and other service. All, I can say is you're a lucky SOB.

 

[Thermal]

How is that possible? I personally change the oil on my cars. About every 5,000 miles. I also change the brake pads and other service. All, I can say is you're a lucky SOB.

They get topped off as they burn off oil, so i figure im actually doing incremental oil changes. When the oil filter rusts through and leaks, it gets a fresh one. Again, knock wood, but: my current Super Duty van has an idiot light that comes on when, as I've discovered, I am 4 quarts low in oil. it comes on with fair frequency.

 

[dirtywick]

How is that possible? I personally change the oil on my cars. About every 5,000 miles. I also change the brake pads and other service. All, I can say is you're a lucky SOB.

i would assume he’s buying them used at high mileage and running them into the ground.

 

[acbytesla]

They get topped off as they burn off oil, so i figure im
actually doing incremental oil changes. When the oil filter rusts through and leaks, it gets a fresh one. Again, knock wood, but: my current Super Duty van has an idiot light that comes on when, as I've discovered, I am 4 quarts low in oil. it comes on with fair frequency.

You're not.

I quiver about that kind of maintenance. I was taught at a young age to do minor maintenance on cars. My father taught me how to change the oil at about the age of ten. Not long after, my father would pay me to do it for him.

 

[Thermal]

You're not.

I quiver about that kind of maintenance. I was taught at a young age to do minor maintenance on cars. My father taught me how to change the oil at about the age of ten. Not long after, my father would pay me to do it for him.

My dad did too. What I found is that such a need is wildly exaggerated, if my decades of experience is looked at, with trucks going radically beyond their expected lives while being horrifically unmaintained. Maybe they are less sensitive, or maybe, as you say, I've led a charmed automotive life. You mentioned brake pads: I do mine too, when those pretty sparks flying off the rotor are visible at night. My current truck went through a set of ball joints, three alternators and two starters in the last 220k miles since I've had it, and that's about it besides tires and pads and all. I love this truck.

 

[acbytesla]

My dad did too. What I found is that such a need is wildly exaggerated, if my decades of experience is looked at, with trucks going radically beyond their expected lives while being horrifically unmaintained. Maybe they are less sensitive, or maybe, as you say, I've led a charmed automotive life. You mentioned brake pads: I do mine too,
when those pretty sparks flying off the rotor are visible at night. My current truck went through a set of ball joints, three alternators and two starters in the last 220k miles since I've had it, and that's about it besides tires and pads and all. I love this truck.

Yes it is. I use to change the oil at the 2,000 mile interval. Now I change it at the 5K interval. The oil is better today and engine tolerances are tighter. So 7500 to 10,000 is probably fine. But oil is cheaper than a new engine. It's also easier for me to remember when I see the odometer at 5,000, 10,00, 15,000, etc. And since I don't buy new cars and all owners don't keep records like I do, I know that they may not have been maintaining the vehicle.

As for the brake pads. Now you're just screwing with me. Why would you do that? So you have to replace the much more expensive rotors too?

 

[8enotto]

To be fair if I had a beater car that burned oil I would top it with the oil left over from oil changes in better cars. Run it through a rag to take out chunks and go.

I never expected those worn engines were worth more than the 5 quarts and filter anyway.

I would also only change front brakes if need be as it was money lost to do both. I made sure the front brakes were damn good too.

Then as soon as spring hit I parked the worst beaters until fall or parted them out to friends. Depending on how bad they were.
Plus it never hurt to have a spare car or two if someone needed it for a day.

Later on I adjusted my lifestyle to not needing a car. Rural life had ended for me.

 

[Thermal]

Yes it is. I use to change the oil at the 2,000 mile interval. Now I change it at the 5K interval. The oil is better today and engine tolerances are tighter. So 7500 to 10,000 is probably fine. But oil is cheaper than a new engine. It's also easier for me to remember when I see the odometer at 5,000, 10,00, 15,000, etc. And since I don't buy new cars an all owners don't keep records like I do, I know that they may not have been maintaining the vehicle.

I ride them so hard that I never expect them to last long anyway, and always think im going to upgrade any day now, so Life Extension measures are pretty much a waste of resources. Yet they keep going. It became kind of interesting to me.

As for the brake pads. Now you're just screwing with me. Why would you do that? So you have to replace the much more expensive rotors too?

Think about that. Do you really think I am replacing the rotors? They are gouged so deeply that the new pads get contoured like a key in a lock.

The last mechanic I had looking at the thing screamed when he saw my rear driver's side rotor. If I recall, I was asking for a quick pad change because it is difficult to work on my truck (no off-street parking at my current digs). Took a lot of convincing to get him to just do a pad swap.

Eta: and what 8enetto said. My work trucks are beaters, only bought for temporary use. They just won't die. Henry Ford was apparently in league with Satan and created a legacy of immortals.

 

[acbytesla]

More than anything else on a car, I maintain the brakes. I want the peace of mind that when I push the pedal down the car will stop. As opposed to hitting the car in front of me.