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Survey about creationism

Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Crossbow said:


-=Vagrant=- I cannot answer your questions because I do not think that God created stuff.
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That's ok.
However, given your target auidence, why do you post those questions here at JREF? Would it not be more efficient to post them on a Christian BBS of some sort?
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Like this? ;) http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62767
I've posted these questions on numerous different boards. I'm such a sneaky bugger.
 
Re: Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Dub said:
[/b]

So the rocks containing elements whose half-lives show that the rocks are many millions of years old are fakes? And Fossils older than ten million years are also fake?

[/b]
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I believe in fossils...I do, I do!:D I honestly have no idea how old they are. I can't give a definitive age for this earth as I have not studied enough data, (on both the evolution and creation side.) That's why I said it was between 5000 and ten million yrs.....perhaps I should have said billion yrs, or trillion.....


Your proof of this flood?
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And your proof there wasn't one? One thing is for sure, there are thousands of similar flood stories like the bible account all over the world. The closer you get to Asia Minor, the closer the stories resemble the bible account. Still, this could be legend and myth floating all over the world. There are extra-biblical accounts of the flood like what was found on some ancient babylonian tablets. These tablets talk about the Ark too. There have also been various explorers, scientists, and archeologists who have studied layers in the earth and concluded that in some point in history there was a world wide flood.
 
1. The earth has been confidently dated to 4.55 billion years. This was calculated using the decay rate of various lead isotopes. It can be relied upon to be fairly accurate. Here's a link:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

2. There is no geologic evidence for a flood of Biblical proportions in any geologic era. None whatsoever. There is evidence for coastal flooding in times of climate change, and of course for plate tectonics. There have been a variety of inland seas that have come and gone, and changing sea levels. But there is simply no way that a flood as described in the bible could have existed. Creationists like to trot out theories like aquifers emptying, or the polar caps melting, but there is no evidence that that has happened either. The reason that Babylonian and Assyrian tablets refer to floods and Arks is that those religions provided the stock material for Judeo-Christian mythology. Much of Judeo-Christian beliefs are actually ancient Babylonian and Assyrian and Persian in origin. I would not rule out a devastating flood of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in the pre-historic past, that provided the original seed that grew into the "worldwide flood" idea. Given the propensity for rivers to flood, it is not inconcievable that other cultures worldwide have experienced devastating floods that were later exaggerated and amplified, especially if it was one climatic event that triggered them. Perhaps an ancient comet impact that created a period of climate change that caused massive flooding more or less all over the world? Or perhaps some freak El Nino incident, or a massive forest fire that threw the climate out of whack.

The take-home message here is that there is no way, using the principles of objective logic and Occam's Razor, that the Bible could be literally accurate. The non-Biblical explanations are much simpler and by definition take much less on faith and belief than do creationist theories.
 
Kashyapa said:
1. The earth has been confidently dated to 4.55 billion years. This was calculated using the decay rate of various lead isotopes. It can be relied upon to be fairly accurate. Here's a link:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

2. There is no geologic evidence for a flood of Biblical proportions in any geologic era. None whatsoever. There is evidence for coastal flooding in times of climate change, and of course for plate tectonics. There have been a variety of inland seas that have come and gone, and changing sea levels. But there is simply no way that a flood as described in the bible could have existed. Creationists like to trot out theories like aquifers emptying, or the polar caps melting, but there is no evidence that that has happened either. The reason that Babylonian and Assyrian tablets refer to floods and Arks is that those religions provided the stock material for Judeo-Christian mythology. Much of Judeo-Christian beliefs are actually ancient Babylonian and Assyrian and Persian in origin. I would not rule out a devastating flood of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in the pre-historic past, that provided the original seed that grew into the "worldwide flood" idea. Given the propensity for rivers to flood, it is not inconcievable that other cultures worldwide have experienced devastating floods that were later exaggerated and amplified, especially if it was one climatic event that triggered them. Perhaps an ancient comet impact that created a period of climate change that caused massive flooding more or less all over the world? Or perhaps some freak El Nino incident, or a massive forest fire that threw the climate out of whack.

The take-home message here is that there is no way, using the principles of objective logic and Occam's Razor, that the Bible could be literally accurate. The non-Biblical explanations are much simpler and by definition take much less on faith and belief than do creationist theories.
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Thanks for your informative post. I've heard so much debate in the past on this issue, and I have remembered very little of the information from both sides of the argument so I feel pretty much clueless...as if I've got to start over again studying the issue. Anyhow, you have given me some food for thought. Could you give me some links?
 
www.talkorigins.com is a fantastic site. They sort of let you come to the decision on your own, instead of bludgeoning you over the head. There was also a fantastic Scientific American article about it a few months back that I bet you could find if you emailed them and asked nicely.

Another option isn't too obvious. One day, a very nice old lady called the biology department I'm in, and asked to talk to someone who was knowledgeable about the creationsim vs. evolution issue. The professor she was referred to was leaving for a trip, but he shunted her to me- I'm a grad student. So I sat down with this very cool and witty and extraordinarily openminded old lady, who was a strong but quiet Christian and wanted to get to the bottom of it. Her minister joined us, and we talked for about two hours over coffee. It was a pleasant conversation, and both of them were quite openminded and accepting of a non-literal Bible interpretation. And we all hashed it out, and at the end the old lady walked away smiling, having integrated evolution and science into her faith seamlessly and painlessly. The point to this little anecdote is that academics aren't just locked away in their ivory towers, and the vast majority of biology professors (or students) would be more than happy- honored even- to take an hour or two to educate and inform someone out of the general public.

Hope your search for information is fruitful!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Ruby said:


And your proof there wasn't one?

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The burden of proof is on the you, the person making the claim. Its not up to me, or anyone else, to prove a negative.


One thing is for sure, there are thousands of similar flood stories like the bible account all over the world. The closer you get to Asia Minor, the closer the stories resemble the bible account. Still, this could be legend and myth floating all over the world. There are extra-biblical accounts of the flood like what was found on some ancient babylonian tablets. These tablets talk about the Ark too.
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Fallacy of argumentum ad populum . Many years ago, it seems likely that local floods would have been interpreted as 'being everywhere', i.e. encompassing their entire 'world', to peoples with limited means of transportation, whose maximum range is only a few hundred miles.


There have also been various explorers, scientists, and archeologists who have studied layers in the earth and concluded that in some point in history there was a world wide flood. [/color
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Care to give any sources for this?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Dub said:


The burden of proof is on the you, the person making the claim. Its not up to me, or anyone else, to prove a negative.

[/b]
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Well, I should have known I'd get that response!:rolleyes:

Part of Vagrant's opening post stated "I'm doing a small survey about creationists"...then his question about the flood 1. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

My answer to that was "Yes. Unsure of time"

I did not know from Vagrant's post that I had to *prove* there had been a flood.

I am neither a paleontologist or an archeologist or a geologist. It has only come through reading some scientific studies coupled with the history in many nations that leads me to believe there was a worldwide flood.


Care to give any sources for this? [/B]
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:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html#kinglist
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-285.htm
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-116a.htm
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/
 
Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Ruby said:


1. How old is the Universe?

I think this seems plausible
infin.jpg
:p

2. How old is the Earth?

between 5000 and ten million yrs

3. How old is life?

Around 3000-5000 yrs

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

Yes. Unsure of time.

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Not sure about that. Need to look into it.
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*sigh*

I question your intellect. :rolleyes:
 
-=Vagrant=- said:
I'm doing a small survey about creationists. If you believe that God created stuff, please give a short answer to the following questions.

1. How old is the Universe?

2. How old is the Earth?

3. How old is life?

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Thank you for your cooperation.
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Hey I like the Preacher pic!

1. Current knowledge probably limits answers on this one, estimates are inot the tens of billions I think. More than 5998 years old.

2. More than 7 days old, more than 5998 years. Estimates of age of solar system 4 to 6 billion years. (oldest rocks on earth are almost 4 Billion)

3. Define life. The 1st anerobic bacteria? The predecessors to organelles? proteins? DNA? Tough one. Where is the starting point where can you point with certainty and say, "There it is, evidence of the emergence of life."

4. The Mississipi floods, As do many river plains around the world, but I suspect you are asking about the Bible Flood.

Many places at different times could have been the origin of the story. Floods are common in history. They are devastating and have affected many lives.

I heard one wild theory (speculation, with no evidence) that the civilization wiped out may have been a people habitating where the Red Sea is now. Continental Drift created the rift and a barrier between the "Red" Rift/Valley and Indian Ocean Collapsed shortly after the last Ice Age (12,000 to 15,000 years ago, pre-history).

Perhaps it was like the Missoula floods. Similiar circumstances as Red Sea re: Ice Age thaw, but different continent. Apparently the largest floods evidenced in geological record.

http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/1001/missoula/

A similiar event may have happened in ancient India, with a glacial "wall" collapsing to release a destructive cascade. Texts written in Sanskrit have stories of a flood.



Eventually the water cut underneath the glacial wall and the dam of ice collapsed over an expanse of about 100 miles. The water rushed over the ice and onto the land with incredible force. An interesting read.

Floods are common and many cultures have stories about floods.

5. Likely many Ice Ages. Homo Sapien's history has been influnced by the Last ice age, but the geological evidence can not tell us much about any Ice ages before the last one. The last ice age "rubbed out" the evidence of previous ice ages. Add to that the consideration of the complexities of evaluating the many factors, some mentioned here:

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/why_4_cool_periods.html

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/why_glaciations1.html
 
Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Joshua Korosi said:



There were more - four, to be precise. They are:
  • Proterozoic - 800 to 600 million years ago
  • Ordovician/Silurian - 460 to 430 million years ago
  • Pennsylvanian/Permian - 350 to 250 million years ago
  • Neogene/Quaternary - within the last 3 to 4 million years or so (we're living in the tail end of it).

There was glacial advancing and retreating many times throughout these periods.



Not at all. :D
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Once again you have done excellent "research" Joshua.
 
The universe was created by me, the Pan-Galooptic Moodlebreistnastikatorum!

You were created with all of your memories of "the past" along with dinosaur bones, light and signals already on its way between stars, and all that other stuff... as well as all of these zany notions and conflicts about a universe being more than a day old!

1. How old is the Universe?
A day.

2. How old is the Earth?
A day.

3. How old is life?
A day.

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?
Well, only the ones from today. I planted the other evidence.

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?
I planted the misleading evidence of Ice (and other) ages just to give some people something to do.

...

Of course, you'll dismiss this all as "nonsense", and rightly so. I designed you to do so.

Proof: Because this is not falsifiable, it can't possibly be false.
 
Re: Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Dark Cobra said:


*sigh*

I question your intellect. :rolleyes:
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Well, I have not claimed to have a great intellect. There is much for me to learn in life. But isn't it better to be a gentle teacher to someone with a lesser intellect like me than to be sarcastic? :eek:
 
Dark Cobra said:
Lots of flood stories, eh?

How many cultures worshipped the sun and moon?

:rolleyes:

Honestly, Ruby, I have no clue how someone could be so stupid and thoughtless.

It's not a "both sides" issue, when talking about creationism vs. evolution.

Rather, it's an "who-is-an-idiot-trying-to-rationalize-their-preconcieved-notions" issue.

You appear to fit the bill.
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Thank you for your astute summation of my intelligence and character. I am a bit shocked you could be so hard and cruel. It is true that I have very little education in the Creationism vs. Evolution debate. I responded to questions...perhaps haphazardly....and certainly with little information in my noggin.

I will now leave this thread to those of higher intellect than mine. I really was trying to learn some things....seeing another view from the one I had been taught, but there's no point in staying where someone can verbally abuse me....call me stupid, thoughtless...and insinuate that I am idiot.
 
Ruby said:


Thank you for your astute summation of my intelligence and character. I am a bit shocked you could be so hard and cruel. It is true that I have very little education in the Creationism vs. Evolution debate. I responded to questions...perhaps haphazardly....and certainly with little information in my noggin.

I will now leave this thread to those of higher intellect than mine. I really was trying to learn some things....seeing another view from the one I had been taught, but there's no point in staying where someone can verbally abuse me....call me stupid, thoughtless...and insinuate that I am idiot.
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Ruby, I think it is a commendable for you to come to a forum and attempt to broaden your horizon on topics you don't know much about. You certainly aren't stupid or thoughtless.
 
Dark Cobra said:
Lots of flood stories, eh?

How many cultures worshipped the sun and moon?

:rolleyes:

Honestly, Ruby, I have no clue how someone could be so stupid and thoughtless.

It's not a "both sides" issue, when talking about creationism vs. evolution.

Rather, it's an "who-is-an-idiot-trying-to-rationalize-their-preconcieved-notions" issue.

You appear to fit the bill.
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Dark Cobra, got some issues?
Why are you attacking Ruby?
If you have a concern with her voluntary responses to a survey then either present evidence to the contrary, or (if you are too angry) consider not responding if you are going to be rude and insulting.


Please read Vagrant's origional post Dark Cobra.




I'm doing a small survey about creationists. If you believe that God created stuff, please give a short answer to the following questions.
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Re: Re: Survey about creationism

Ruby said:


1. How old is the Universe?

I think this seems plausible
infin.jpg
:p

2. How old is the Earth?

between 5000 and ten million yrs

3. How old is life?

Around 3000-5000 yrs

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

Yes. Unsure of time.

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Not sure about that. Need to look into it.
Click to expand...

Thankyou for participating in a survey and being honest Ruby. The purpose most people come to this forum is to expose themselves to various views and not to look for individuals to insult.

I imagine you already realize there are many people that will debate honorably here, even when there is a difference of opinion or people interpret evidence differently or have different values.

I am impresssed that you are here to consider other views and you are participating in your own learning.

I can only speak for myself as I say, the purpose for me being here is to learn as well. I am working on considering other points of view.
 
This was meant to be a small insignificant survey, not a name-calling-thread. I'd never call someone, who I've never met, stupid. (Except AForce1)

Thank you for your answers Ruby.
 
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