John, we can agree to disagree, no problems. I'm not here to bash anyone unless they're claiming super powers...or trying to sell me magic detoxifying footpads.
It's just that I'm relatively new to this whole "science is a belief" idea, as I said upthread I've only ever seen it related to ID vs Evolution and in that context it was more being used as a weapon without any real explanation as to why I should consider it as "fact"
If I were to try and boil your stance down to one sentence and try to relate to science as a belief I find myself coming up with...well...opinion. But I'll try anyway.
Suppose we take Einstein's famous equation E=MC Squared
That basically says that energy and mass are the same thing and I would put your stance as putting more weight to the idea that mass ( material ) is actually energy and therefore science is failing to take this into consideration when it discusses materialism.
From your post, I gather you're taking the opinion that science reduces everything to matter, and completely discounts energy, which, if true, would lend credence to the idea that science functions as a belief system.
Energy-Matter:
No, misunderstandings gallore, I'm afraid. I was happily discussing the issue of the subject(ive) problem using 'matter' as a shorthand for energy-matter, aware of their interchangeability and also not really considering their dual nature much of a concern. Then along came Dancing David, if I remember rightly (pardon me DD if I'm wrong), telling me in response to my discussion of materialism and the problem of the universe not actually appearing much like matter as normally thought of by ordinary folks that there wasn't any matter, it was all energy, and it behaved as waves everywhere, always, and he hoped that cleared it up for me.
Of course, what it did was introduce a red-herring. I, being relatively ignorant of 21st Century particle physics (understatement of the year), took his word for it and asked what difference it made to the question (which we established was none at all), and also (ironically) asked why materialism was called materialism. If I remember right, I also stated that I had thought that light, for instance, behaved as particles under some circumstances and waves under others, and that there was at least some controversy about what it all meant. This was the state of play the last time I watched Open University, but that might be 5 years ago.
Various other people then lectured me on the understanding that matter and energy are interchangeable, which, as I said, I knew already. Strangely, no-one seems to have argued with DD about there only being energy and it always behaving as a wave. I could also get into questions about whether 'particle physicists' are just using the same kind of shorthand we use when talking about 'materialism'. I might also question whether the idea of quanta of energy and waves are compatible imagery, or whether quanta (packets) are not rather more like particles, but I can't be bothered. It does, however, reinforce the general ignorance science somehow manages to translate into nearly having a theory of everything, so thanks for that.
Science as Belief
I'm surprised this needs explainaing again, but I guess you're actually struggling with it more because of all the red-herrings we've been wading through.
You consider Christianity a belief system because it has certain ideas that define it, most notably the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was the one and only incarnation of God. Science says everything is matter, and that matter behaves according to laws that apply in all circumstances. These, like the incarnation of God, are axioms. One is reinforced by dogma, the other is reinforced by....erm....dogma. Ok, that's harsh, but let's just note how incredibly difficult it seems to be for anyone to raise the question without being labelled insane, having a jesus complex, wanting to preach, being unable to deal with harsh possibilities, and all the rest of the hostility I found here. Old hands even warned me it would come. But it is more complicated than that. It is reinforced as much by habit and the difficulty of inventing another form of science that could possibly look for evidence of non-physical entities. The very idea of looking is wrapped up in physicality. We look because of the light reflected or emitted by matter. So I did acknowledge that the question was unfair in that sense, and belonged not to science, but philosophy. This challenge came up early on, and I reminded us that the board was for philosophy and religion.
Incidentally, it is even more amazing that the scientific-belief-system of the forum as a whole legitimised the scientific-believers on the philosophy and religion forum to bully philosophers and religious people, as if our views didn't belong here. Articulett even told me to 'evolve then join the conversation', as if it were her conversation, her board, her forum and she was talking to me from further up the evolutionary tree. She seemed not to notice that I started the conversation, or to consider whether other people's views should have equal rights to hers.
Anyway, I hope that helps. Science is a belief system because it concerns beliefs that fit its philosophy - its underlying metaphysical assumptions - so your other examples are also scientific beliefs (the firewalking one and this energy-is-matter one). I don't quite see what's so hard to understand. If someone's in a pub and says they're a scientist, I generally know what kinds of things they believe. If the guy next to them says they're a Christian, I generally know what kind of things he believes, and I wouldn't see anything odd about the scientist saying "I'm a scientist. I believe that the only thing in the universe is matter/energy".
The Christian would then say "What? Well explain to me how you're aware then?"
And the scientist would say, from what I understand, "I'm not. I just think I am. I'm a deluded zombie...you throwback moron!"
It is about this time that Buddhists at the next table would politely intervene and clear up all the misunderstandings by chanting and ringing a bell and reminding us what Prince Siddartha said about everything being Void and the importance of being nice to people.
Sorry, I've just lost the will to discuss this sensibly anymore!
