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Stupid teleportation topic.

Very good. And if that machinery is destroyed, you cease to exist. If that machinery is duplicated, another being is formed, one who is the same as you. A clone - a twin. You don't form. HE (or she) does.
No, a duplicate is not a clone. A duplicate, in every state, is me. I exist if what defines me as me exists.
That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, at the moment of duplication (not teletransportion, etc) which do you see - an X or an O, or both? Simple question - what's the answer?
At the moment of duplication I see whatever I was watching at the time. When I've been recreated, I see whatever I see at that time.
 
Addendum:

The problem seems to be that some people feel there is a unique YOU which apparently transcends any relation to the physical YOU. As if YOU exist in some way apart from any machinery which generates YOU. As if you have a soul.

You dont. Or rather, there is no reason to suspect you do.

YOU are generated from your physical body. And your body consists of elementary particles. And it is known that there no difference between one elementary particle of type X from another of type X. Except their quantum states. And since the quantum states are copied when you use the teleporter, I don't understand what could possibly remain to distinguish the original YOU from the new YOU. It's like saying that if I take a step, the ME at the new position is not the original ME. (bad example, but nevertheless...)
 
No, a duplicate is not a clone. A duplicate, in every state, is me. I exist if what defines me as me exists.

No, DanishDynamite exists if what defines DanishDynamite as DanishDynamite exists. However, there are then two DanishDynamites - an original, and a clone. And at NO TIME, ever, does the consciousness of the original occur within the clone. Rather, a duplicate consciousness appears - NOT THE SAME ONE.

At the moment of duplication I see whatever I was watching at the time. When I've been recreated, I see whatever I see at that time.

Just answer the question - X, or O? I suspect you're waffling for a reason.
 
Addendum:

The problem seems to be that some people feel there is a unique YOU which apparently transcends any relation to the physical YOU. As if YOU exist in some way apart from any machinery which generates YOU. As if you have a soul.

No, there is a unique instance of you that is a part of the continuous and dynamic physical you. Creating a second 'you' does not satisfy the continuous, dynamic aspect of what you are; it only creates a copy of you.

You dont. Or rather, there is no reason to suspect you do.

YOU are generated from your physical body. And your body consists of elementary particles. And it is known that there no difference between one elementary particle of type X from another of type X. Except their quantum states. And since the quantum states are copied when you use the teleporter, I don't understand what could possibly remain to distinguish the original YOU from the new YOU. It's like saying that if I take a step, the ME at the new position is not the original ME. (bad example, but nevertheless...)

There may be nothing at all to distinguish between the two, except for differential experience. At the point any experience differs between the two, the distinguishment is made. But here's the catch: since your personal record of a continual and dynamic existence would be faced with cessation, how on earth can you say that you would 'transport' anywhere?

I've noticed that those who propose what you are claiming above often have to resort to scenarios where the difference is deliberately disguised; where the original has to be killed before realizing that a difference exists, or where conditions have to be so nearly identical as to not create a sense of difference. Why? Because any signifigant difference would illustrate that the original consciousness remains trapped within its own body, unable to transport ANYWHERE, and suffers a fatal fate - no getting around that one, I'm afraid. UNLESS folks like DD above are proposing that identical twins share a consciousness, or that you can have a continuous and dynamic record of existence shared between two physically separated but otherwise identical beings... and of course, if that's not being proposed, we see clearly that duplication does NOT equal transportation of conscious awareness.

Another argument, that so far I have not offered because I have certain problems with it, is that we're never the same person, from moment to moment - due to cellular replacement, for example; yet the neurons of the brain remain largely the same throughout human life, and since there's no reason to think that consciousness ISN'T tied to the brain, there is therefore reason to think that a particular consciousness may very well be tied to a particular collection of neurons.. and that duplicating that set of neurons would only create a second, identical consciousness - not the SAME consciousness.

I look at it this way: if I have a drawing of a cat, and I take that drawing and create two copies in the copy machine, is each copy the other copy? Is copy A identical to copy B? Of course. But is copy A copy B? Of course not. If I burn copy B, does anything happen to A? Not necessarily.

Now suppose that copy A was actually a copy of B... now does A burn? Not necessarily.

Now imagine if copy B had self-awareness... what then?

I'm not arguing for an imaginary soul; I'm arguing against a magical transfer of consciousness from one set of atoms to a completely unrelated and disconnected set of atoms. It's obvious that what's being proposed is a magical transfer; or, more appropriately, that no transfer at all is actually occuring, and that DD and others seem to prefer the idea of somebody carrying on as them, rather than continuing themselves. Why? Beats the hell out of me.

DD - If the duplicate is made, and the original is NOT killed - which one is you? Yes, I know that you're both identical in most respects - but which one has been you and will continue to be you? Will you suddenly have awareness of being on Mars, or will you merely be aware that a duplicate of you is on Mars? Answer very carefully, because within that answer lies my whole problem with this nonsense.
 
Wait a second, aren't I already a copy of me? I've renewed every cell in my body since birth. The me that exists now is not remotely composed of the same cells that composed me 20 years ago. What is the difference between renewing cells incrementally and renewing them instantly?

I'm asking the questions pretend I have the remotest answer, I don't.
 
Zaayrdragon, given this hypothetical situation, how would you prove the duplicate (with the original destroyed) was not the same person? In every respect? If you can't, then why isn't it effective teleportation? You seem to be saying there is some 'essence' in the physical being that would be lost...
 
It's the whole 'can you prove you weren't created along with everything else about 1 second ago'. You can't, and it is irrelevant. However if this situation arose, which I can see it potentially doing so, it would no longer be irrelevant. Can you prove to me you weren't just 'teleported' (by this method) to exactly where you are now?
 
Let's say that, instead of destroying the original, the company that owns the 'transporter' decides that having two of anyone is a damned nuisance, and instead has the original placed in cryogenic storage. In this scenario, would you so rapidly take the teleporter? And if not, why not?
Now you are getting into an ethical discussion, basically unrelated to the question at hand. You might have well had asked my view on a clone of mine being grown without my knowledge and what my view would be on that.

Well, I am aware of at least two sci-fi "universes" where teleportation technology works on this level. In both, you are disassembled, the information is beamed, and you are re-assembled from local atoms.

In both universes this is seen as "fine". Now in both universes, disassembly is required to learn the atomic positioning (and one goes further, requiring it to gain the energy required for beam transmission, which makes absolutely no sense.)

The cryogenic suggestion is designed to counter this idea. In both universes we have the deus ex machina that disassembly is required. But that is a fiction of the authors. What if it wasn't? What if the technology did not require disassembly. Then what? Disassemble anyway so you don't have the copy problem?

I think it shines the light on the idea that yes, you, the source body, will die. End of story. For you, but not your copy.
 
Sorry, but you are the one that doesn't seem to get it. There is no YOU except in so far as there is a machinery for generating a YOU. If such a machinery exists, you exist. Otherwise you don't.

It is really very, very simple.

In regard to your question, I don't understand it. What I see after being teleported is whatever is at the place where I arrive. One minute I'll be looking at Copenhagen (assuming there is a window) the next I'll be looking at Mars.

One additional thing to consider, that a philosophy professor pointed out, consider a bicycle. You replace one small part. Is it still the same bike? Sure. You replace another? Still the same? Sure.

In such a way, piece by piece, you can replace the entire bicycle. In a similar way, it is theorized, you could replace every cell in your brain, and still retain a contiguouos "you".

But...what if someone were gathering up all these bicycle pieces as they were replaced, one by one, then reassembles the bicycle?

If someone gathers up all the brain cells, then reassembles your brain. Then what? Obviously if they just disassembled your brain, you'd just be safely teleported, so to speak. You wouldn't fear you'd have died. Yet your consciousness is actually over there in that now completely mechanical brain. So what consciousness woke up in the brain of re-assembled cells? Which is the "copy" and which is the "real" one?
 
Wait a second, aren't I already a copy of me? I've renewed every cell in my body since birth. The me that exists now is not remotely composed of the same cells that composed me 20 years ago. What is the difference between renewing cells incrementally and renewing them instantly?

I'm asking the questions pretend I have the remotest answer, I don't.

No, you haven't renewed your brain cells. Some of them, recent evidence suggests, but not the majority of them. Very telling, I think.
 
Zaayrdragon, given this hypothetical situation, how would you prove the duplicate (with the original destroyed) was not the same person? In every respect? If you can't, then why isn't it effective teleportation? You seem to be saying there is some 'essence' in the physical being that would be lost...

It may be effective to everyone in the universe - but never to the destroyed original. It's that simple.
 
One additional thing to consider, that a philosophy professor pointed out, consider a bicycle. You replace one small part. Is it still the same bike? Sure. You replace another? Still the same? Sure.

Reminds me of my old sledge hammer. Best piece of craftsmanship I've seen in years. Only had to replace the head twice and the handle three times. They just don't make tools like that anymore...

Anyway, to re-state the conditions: the teleporter creates an exact duplicate of you on the other side of the galaxy and simultaneously destroys the original here. Would you teleport?

Try looking at it like this... Would you agree to have a duplicate of yourself made on the other side of the galaxy, then instead of the original being destroyed it is slowly tortured to death for the amusement of well-paying perverts?

Consider that both yous will remember making the agreement. Both yous will remember showing up at the teleport building. Both yous will remember signing the contract stating that the duplicate will receive 10 million dollars and the original will be slowly tortured to death. Both yous will remember being sedated for the pre-teleport processing. Both yous will remember falling asleep before as the teleport process is about to begin. Then, process complete, both yous will wake up...

So, which you are you? Do you get 10 milllion dollars, or are you about to be tortured to death? One of the yous is saying "Sweet! I'm frackin rich!!" The other you is saying "Erm, wait a minute, I didn't think it would be this way!!". Which one is really you?

I would submit there are now two separate individuals who answer to your name when called, one of them is just very confused about how things worked out.
 
Reminds me of my old sledge hammer. Best piece of craftsmanship I've seen in years. Only had to replace the head twice and the handle three times. They just don't make tools like that anymore...

Anyway, to re-state the conditions: the teleporter creates an exact duplicate of you on the other side of the galaxy and simultaneously destroys the original here. Would you teleport?

Try looking at it like this... Would you agree to have a duplicate of yourself made on the other side of the galaxy, then instead of the original being destroyed it is slowly tortured to death for the amusement of well-paying perverts?

Consider that both yous will remember making the agreement. Both yous will remember showing up at the teleport building. Both yous will remember signing the contract stating that the duplicate will receive 10 million dollars and the original will be slowly tortured to death. Both yous will remember being sedated for the pre-teleport processing. Both yous will remember falling asleep before as the teleport process is about to begin. Then, process complete, both yous will wake up...

So, which you are you? Do you get 10 milllion dollars, or are you about to be tortured to death? One of the yous is saying "Sweet! I'm frackin rich!!" The other you is saying "Erm, wait a minute, I didn't think it would be this way!!". Which one is really you?

I would submit there are now two separate individuals who answer to your name when called, one of them is just very confused about how things worked out.

There would be you, slowly tortured to death, and a perfect duplicate of you, implanted with artificial memories, enjoying not only your rights and property, but also 10 million dollars. A twin, and nothing more.
 
I don't really understand the people who believe they would be killed just because their atoms were destroyed. Are "you" made of atoms? In my experience, dualists regard the self as a supernatural construct, separate from the physical body, and materialists regard the self as an emergent property of the configuration of the physical body. In neither case do the atoms themselves matter.

Arguing that you would no longer be yourself just because your new body is made of different atoms (in the same configuration) implies that atoms have "hair;" that is, that it's possible to tell the difference between two atoms with identical physical properties. This contradicts some basic tenets of physics, and is a pretty bizarre position for dualists and materialists alike.

For those who question whether teleportation would be fatal, here's my take: Death is the destruction of a person. Since I don't believe in the supernatural, to me that means the destruction of the information which composes the person, specifically the configuration of atoms which represents his brain (the rest of the body is important too, of course). If there are two identical copies of a person, frozen in time, the destruction of one of them would not cause the loss of any information and would not represent a death.

Note that this applies only if the two copies are "sufficiently identical." If the copies diverge in a significant way (for example, if the first copy remains conscious after being "scanned" for teleport), then they are no longer quite the same person. Destruction of one copy would cause the irrevocable loss of information, and thus the end of that person's life.

Would I teleport? Well, I wouldn't want to be the first, just to make sure there are no bugs in the system. I wouldn't have wanted to be the first person in a rocket, either. Would I teleport if I'd seen others do it and come out apparently unscathed? Sure.

Jeremy
 
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I think we can answer this question more easily, from a materialistic perspective, if we remove the idea of there being an "I" and a "You", and replace it with "A brain aware of its own existence".

When we look at it like this, whatever we do to that brain, as long as it is still functioning correctly, it will believe it is still a brain aware of its own existence, and it will think and act the same way it always did.

So, when you teleport, it's not as if "You" will be dying, because there was no "You" in the first place, but that brain will be destroyed and a new one created, all at once.

Since various parts of this brain are being lost and replaced every day, essentially the brain is constantly changing anyway, but this is a little different to a brain being completely replaced all at once. It's akin to you slowly changing your personality over many years (you still feel like the same person when this happens), or completely changing it all in one go, in which case you'd feel like the real you had died only to be replaced by a new personality.

That's why the teleportation is a scary idea. It would be a different brain entirely.

In short, going through that teleporter is a bad idea, because a completely new brain would be created. However, the brain would not be aware of this and everything would seem exactly the same.

Make of that what you will.
 
No, DanishDynamite exists if what defines DanishDynamite as DanishDynamite exists. However, there are then two DanishDynamites - an original, and a clone. And at NO TIME, ever, does the consciousness of the original occur within the clone. Rather, a duplicate consciousness appears - NOT THE SAME ONE.
No, there is no clone. A clone is just a being with the same DNA.

However, if we condider a Copy, then at the moment of duplication there will be two MEs (assuming the original is not destroted). The consciousness of the original occurs exactly within the duplicate. The duplicate's consciousness cannot be anything other than the original's.
Just answer the question - X, or O? I suspect you're waffling for a reason.
I already answered. The personality that I know myself to be would see X (if we ask the original) and the personality I know myself to be would see O (if we ask the copy).
 
Bugger! My reply to zaayrdragon's second reply to me just disappeared into cyberspace. I'll try and redo it tomorrow.
 
I was just thinking about this topic again. Here's an interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure which side the implications support.

Imagine that instead of creating an exact copy all at once in a far off place (and destroying the original), the teleportation machine did it one atom at a time.

It takes one atom, sends the data over, has an atom (exactly like it of course, these are atoms), put in place in the distant place. At the same time it takes the original atom and removes it from the body. Then it moves on to the next. It operates very quickly, and soon it makes an exact copy with every atom in the correct configuration.
Say this takes several minutes. Say also that you can remain concious durring the process.

What do you experience?
 
I was just thinking about this topic again. Here's an interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure which side the implications support.

Imagine that instead of creating an exact copy all at once in a far off place (and destroying the original), the teleportation machine did it one atom at a time.

It takes one atom, sends the data over, has an atom (exactly like it of course, these are atoms), put in place in the distant place. At the same time it takes the original atom and removes it from the body. Then it moves on to the next. It operates very quickly, and soon it makes an exact copy with every atom in the correct configuration.
Say this takes several minutes. Say also that you can remain concious durring the process.

What do you experience?

A pretty nasty death, when enough of your vital atoms are gone.

You did say 'several minutes'.
 

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