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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

Ok, what were they saying in the textbook you linked to that differs from the textbooks later that used Haeckel?

You appear to have access to the 60s textbook. What does it say?

The research library here only has the 1968 edition. Is that good enough for you, or do you demand the 1963 edition only?

Keep in mind I am not asking for something unreasonable. You claim due to the teaching in the textbook changing, they went back to Haeckel.

No, I'm claiming that due to a new branch of science emerging (or, rather, re-emerging as new genetic evidence made it tenable again), textbooks that served as an introduction to biological sciences mention Haeckel again in that context.

Seems even worse than my point then, however, in that they removed data-sets that wouldn't support their new addition?

So, first you were upset that scientists "rely on" incorrect data, and now you're upset that they discarded incorrect data?
 
The research library here only has the 1968 edition. Is that good enough for you, or do you demand the 1963 edition only?

the one you quoted the pic of, as I stated......what does it say?

No, I'm claiming that due to a new branch of science emerging (or, rather, re-emerging as new genetic evidence made it tenable again), textbooks that served as an introduction to biological sciences mention Haeckel again in that context.

Uh huh? Why would they not use up to date drawings they had already used before and paid for and go back to faked ones?

Also, show what they say so we can see if there is any difference in what they are saying to justify going back to faked drawings.

What do the textbooks say?
 
So this is the book titled "BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE MOLECULES TO MAN BLUE VERSION"

Didn't they get the memo that abiogenesis is not part of evolution:eek:.....cracks me up.

If you can show the picture, then you can show the text, right? Please do so.
 
the one you quoted the pic of, as I stated......what does it say?

The diagrams didn't change between the two editions, but the text may have. I'll have to get the book, which will take a little while (one to two weeks).

If I post pictures of the pages in question (so you can't accuse me of lying about my transcription), will you admit that your entire argument regarding Haeckel and textbooks is totally wrong?

And, while we're waiting on the USPS, you still have some questions you haven't answered.

Why is the above diagram so different from Haeckel's? Why does it show things Haeckel never even attempted to show? If Haeckel was so relied on and trusted, why is there even a different version of his diagram in existence, regardless of how it was used?

Why are Haeckel or his drawings not cited or even mentioned in peer-reviewed studies about the exact thing you claim is just Haeckelism warmed over: the concept of phylotypic stages? Why is he not mentioned, but von Baer is?

Where and how do scientists, actual scientists performing studies and writing papers in disciplinary journals? Be specific, randman.

Uh huh? Why would they not use up to date drawings they had already used before and paid for and go back to faked ones?

I've already told you exactly why, many times. Haeckel is important historically to the science of phylogenetics and comparative embryology.

Haeckel is mentioned for the same reason von Baer is, and Darwin is. And for the same reason that Newton is mentioned in textbooks about physics.

However, Haeckel's diagrams are are not used by scientists as evidence for any modern phylogenetic theory!

Now, either show exactly where and how actual working scientists make specific use of Haeckel's diagrams, or withdraw your claim.
 
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The diagrams didn't change between the two editions, but the text may have. I'll have to get the book, which will take a little while.

Never asked you to provide both, just the text that goes along with the picture you posted.

Why are you so reluctant do that?

If I post pictures of the pages in question (so you can't accuse me of lying about my transcription), will you admit that your entire argument regarding Haeckel and textbooks is totally wrong?

No, because finding a couple of texbooks that didn't use Haeckel does not change the fact that so many others did.

Post the text so we can see what they said.

And, while we're waiting on the USPS, you still have some questions you haven't answered.

Why are we waiting on USPS? What source did you get the pic from?

Why are Haeckel or his drawings not cited or even mentioned in peer-reviewed studies about the exact thing you claim is just Haeckelism warmed over: the concept of phylotypic stages? Why is he not mentioned, but von Baer is?

So if this renewed interest just involves Von Baer's ideas, why would they go back to Haeckel's drawings? You never answer that. You say they went back to less accurate drawings because of what was happening in the field of embryology?

Does that really make sense to you? Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

I've already told you exactly why, many times. Haeckel is important historically to the science of phylogenetics and comparative embryology.

Haeckel is mentioned for the same reason von Baer is, and Darwin is. And for the same reason that Newton is mentioned in textbooks about physics.

Isn't that just as much true in the 1960s as the 1990s. Your logic makes no sense. Why if they were just trying to show history would Haeckel be dropped from textbooks and then come back again!

However, Haeckel's diagrams are are not used by scientists as evidence for any modern phylogenetic theory!

Already showed you where Richardson said they were in 1997. Did you not read that?

But once again, your logic makes no sense. If textbook authors merely used Haeckel out of convenience and not as evidence, why would they drop Haeckel and then put his depictions back again?

Did history change?
 
Never asked you to provide both, just the text that goes along with the picture you posted.

Why are you so reluctant do that?

I'm not. I just told you I can do it, and will do it. You just have to wait until the book gets into my hands.

No, because finding a couple of texbooks that didn't use Haeckel does not change the fact that so many others did.

Yes it does, because these aren't just "a couple of textbooks", but the textbooks that resulted when actual biologists wrote a textbook (which they hadn't been doing before). And said textbook contains something you said shouldn't exist, and that casts severe doubt on the part of your claim regarding textbooks.

Post the text so we can see what they said.

As soon as I get the 1963 edition. I already told you that diagrams are the same between the two editions, but the text may not be, so while I can give you that same diagram, in order to be sure of the text I'm quoting from the earlier edition, I have to wait for the earlier edition.

If you want the 1968 text, I can give you that by this weekend.

Why are we waiting on USPS? What source did you get the pic from?

See above.

So if this renewed interest just involves Von Baer's ideas, why would they go back to Haeckel's drawings? You never answer that.

Because von Baer didn't make drawings like Haeckel's.

You say they went back to less accurate drawings because of what was happening in the field of embryology?

Does that really make sense to you? Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

That's because you're being, perhaps deliberately, obtuse.

Isn't that just as much true in the 1960s as the 1990s. Your logic makes no sense. Why if they were just trying to show history would Haeckel be dropped from textbooks and then come back again!

Because it wasn't a big deal until the 90's. (EDIT:That is, the importance of Haeckel's drawings themselves to the history, rather than the basic idea itself of comparing vertebrate embryos that those drawings represented. Before 1990, it was important that he did it. After, it was important that he did it. Do you see the distinction?)

Already showed you where Richardson said they were in 1997. Did you not read that?

EDIT:And what did those cited papers say about Haeckel?

I'm talking after Richardson warned about Haeckel. Your argument is, after all, that despite Richardson's discovery, scientists still rely on Haeckel's bad data.

But once again, your logic makes no sense. If textbook authors merely used Haeckel out of convenience and not as evidence, why would they drop Haeckel and then put his depictions back again?

Did history change?

What was important for students to know about history changed.
 
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Since you've chosen to mock my history lesson rather than learn from it, in the (vain) hope that you perhaps just think I, personally, am just making it all up, here's another description of it, written by Scott F. Gilbert, PhD, "the Howard A. Schneiderman Professor of Biology at Swarthmore College, where he teaches developmental genetics, embryology, and the history and critiques of biology. He received his B.A. in both biology and religion from Wesleyan University (1971), and he earned his PhD in biology at the Johns Hopkins University (1976). His M.A. in the history of science, also from The Johns Hopkins University, was done under the supervision of Dr. Donna Haraway. He pursued post doctoral research at the University of Wisconsin in molecular biology and developmental immunology."

The concept of homology enables one to celebrate the differences or the similarities between two structures. Whether one emphasizes the similarities between our forelimb and a bird's wing or the differences between them depends on what you are describing. Comparative anatomy—with its Aristotelian and Cuverian interest in relating structure to function—usually emphasizes the differences. Morphology—with its Platonic and Geoffroyan interest in the underlying unities of structure—usually focuses on the similarities.

As Joseph Needham noted, embryology has swung between these two poles during different stages of its morphogenesis. In the late 1800s, the morphological tradition prevailed, and the similarities between developmental stages in different organisms constituted some of the best evidence for classification (see Nyhart 1995; Bowler 1996). Thus, the discovery of the Nauplius stage of the barnacle showed that it was a modified crustacean, and the notochord-containing tadpole of the tunicate demonstrated its affinities with the chordates. However, after the 1920s, embryology was no longer a major support for evolutionary biology, and the comparative anatomy tradition came to predominate. Until the 1980s, embryology was extremely descriptive. Each organ was seen to develop differently from any other organ, and each species was seen to develop differently from any other species. Indeed, embryology was defined (by one of its practitioners, E. G. Conklin) as a "lawless science," because generalities could not be made from the observations of animal development. When embryology underwent its anagenic transition to become developmental biology, the similarities among organisms were again emphasized. The similarities were now posited on the molecular rather than the morphological or cell lineage level. The 1990s has seen a remarkable celebration of the similarity of molecular processes throughout the animal kingdom. Homologous genes abound (the Hox genes, fringe, tinman, and Pax6 being seen to specify the anterior-posterior axis, the limb, the heart, and the eye, respectively, of organisms as diverse as insects and flies). Even signalling pathways are seen as being homologous both within a developing organism and between organisms. Thus, the neural tube in vertebrates and insects are seen as being formed through the same interactions of the "same" proteins, even though one neural tube is dorsal and the other ventral. The Richardson et al. paper reminds us that despite these similarities, differences are also important, especially if one is thinking in terms of the relationships between development and evolution.

EDIT: Which should also explain to you why Haeckel's drawings are irrelevant to modern comparative embryology, and could disappear from the face of the Earth without changing a single part of the Synthetic Model.
 
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So did they go back to relying on Haeckel or not? Richardson said Haeckel was the chief data-set for the belief among embryologists of a highly conserved stage, which is really a significant part of what the scientist is referring to when he says "similarities." Do they pass through a highly conserved stage or not?

But regardless, the quote doesn't answer anything really.

For example, are we to think they stopped looking at differences and purposely went back to hoodwinking folks in the Biogenetic law?

Is that what you are saying?

It would help if you just cite and link to your source for the pic you showed from the 60s textbook so we can see what it says.

Why won't you do that?

Is it because it conflicts with your claims?
 
So did they go back to relying on Haeckel or not? Richardson said Haeckel was the chief data-set for the belief among embryologists of a highly conserved stage, which is really a significant part of what the scientist is referring to when he says "similarities." Do they pass through a highly conserved stage or not?

No, they didn't. Scientists don't reference Haeckel at all when talking about the phylotypic stage, but genomic data, something that didn't even exist when Haeckel was alive.

And not even Richardson said those drawings were the "chief data-set".

For example, are we to think they stopped looking at differences and purposely went back to hoodwinking folks in the Biogenetic law?

Is that what you are saying?

Why would you think that's what I'm saying? That isn't anything close to what I've been saying. (EDIT: Or anything close to what Gilbert says. Where the hell are you even getting that interpretation?)

It would help if you just cite and link to your source for the pic you showed from the 60s textbook so we can see what it says.

I have.

Are you seriously claiming that the 1963 and 1968 editions of the book use different diagrams?

Is it because it conflicts with your claims?

No, it's because I have the 1968 edition available to me, and am getting the 1963 edition (an effort which is costing me actual money, I'll have you know), even though they use the same diagram, just to prove to you that your desperate attempts to say Haeckel is relied on are false.

Not that you're going to admit that.
 
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ANTPogo said:
So did they go back to relying on Haeckel or not? Richardson said Haeckel was the chief data-set for the belief among embryologists of a highly conserved stage, which is really a significant part of what the scientist is referring to when he says "similarities." Do they pass through a highly conserved stage or not?

No, they didn't. Scientists don't reference Haeckel at all when talking about the phylotypic stage, but genomic data, something that didn't even exist when Haeckel was alive.

And not even Richardson said those drawings were the "chief data-set".

How many times do I have to show this to you in order for to admit you are wrong. Here is a scientist referencing Haeckel in a 1997 paper. You say that didn't happen. Will you admit you were wrong?

There is no highly conserved embryonic stage in the vertebrates: implications for current theories of evolution and development.

....

Some authors have suggested that members of most or all vertebrate clades pass through a virtually identical, conserved stage. This idea was promoted by Haeckel......Haeckel's drawings of the external morphology of various vertebrates remain the most comprehensive comparative data purporting to show a conserved stage. .....Our survey seriously undermines the credibility of Haeckel's drawings, which depict not a conserved stage for vertebrates, but a stylised amniote embryo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9278154

Not sure we have anything to discuss. You act like Haeckel is not referenced. I show you a famous 1997 paper where he is. You deny it. I point out he says the paper is about investigating Haeckel's idea where, as I showed in another quote, is assumed to be true.

Most noteworthy he cites Haeckel as "the most comprehensive data purporting to show" this idea. He then debunks Haeckel's data as a means of debunking the idea.

That's good science, and it shows an admission Haeckel was the "most comprehensive data" behind the idea and that the idea was promoted by Haeckel.

Why do you contest any of this?

You can argue he was wrong but to pretend he doesn't reference Haeckel is absurd. This is the abstract even. It's the principal summary of the purpose and objective of the paper.
 
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No, it's because I have the 1968 edition available to me, and am getting the 1963 edition (an effort which is costing me actual money, I'll have you know), even though they use the same diagram, just to prove to you that your desperate attempts to say Haeckel is relied on are false.

Well, if you have the 1968 edition, why are you not posting what it says along with the visual they use?

If you did it once, why not again?

Are you telling me you hand-scanned the visual you posted earlier? Don't you have it an electronic format?

So post the text too. Geesh.

Getting one more edition won't change anything, btw.
 

I didn't see. Just a link to where I could buy the book, and btw, you could buy e-books for cheaper and they show up right away. Might make more sense if you are purchasing an old textbook you want to copy and paste from.
 
There is no highly conserved embryonic stage in the vertebrates: implications for current theories of evolution and development.

....

Some authors have suggested that members of most or all vertebrate clades pass through a virtually identical, conserved stage. This idea was promoted by Haeckel......Haeckel's drawings of the external morphology of various vertebrates remain the most comprehensive comparative data purporting to show a conserved stage. .....Our survey seriously undermines the credibility of Haeckel's drawings, which depict not a conserved stage for vertebrates, but a stylised amniote embryo.

So this one paper in 1997 referred to the guy as wrong, and you think this means that scientists were relying on him?

What?
 
How many times do I have to show this to you in order for to admit you are wrong. Here is a scientist referencing Haeckel in a 1997 paper. You say that didn't happen. Will you admit you were wrong?

This is beginning to grow tiresome. Typical troll pattern of avoiding the meat of the discussion and focusing on some unimportant peripheral issue because it has little semantic loopholes that allow the argument to continue ad nauseum.

Wake me if randman has something of substance to contribute.
 
Well, if you have the 1968 edition, why are you not posting what it says along with the visual they use?

Because when I asked if the text from the 1968 edition would suit you, you said it wouldn't.

If you did it once, why not again?

Because the research library closes at 5 all this week due to spring break.

Are you telling me you hand-scanned the visual you posted earlier? Don't you have it an electronic format?

Of course not. I know you get all your knowledge from Creationist websites, but there are entire buildings full of actual books out there which talk about things your websites will never tell you.

Try visiting one sometime.

So post the text too. Geesh.

As soon as I can get back down to the library.

Getting one more edition won't change anything, btw.

In terms of you admitting that you're wrong and have no idea what you're talking about?

No, it probably won't.

I didn't see. Just a link to where I could buy the book, and btw, you could buy e-books for cheaper and they show up right away. Might make more sense if you are purchasing an old textbook you want to copy and paste from.

It indeed would.

If there happened to be an e-book version of these texts.

How many times do I have to show this to you in order for to admit you are wrong. Here is a scientist referencing Haeckel in a 1997 paper. You say that didn't happen. Will you admit you were wrong?

No, I said it didn't happen after Richardson pointed out the problem with Haeckel.

The linked paper has nothing to do with your argument that scientists continue to rely on bad data.

Most noteworthy he cites Haeckel as "the most comprehensive data purporting to show" this idea. He then debunks Haeckel's data as a means of debunking the idea.

Except he doesn't address all the genomic evidence mentioned in my link above, and in all those papers since 1997 talking about the phylotypic stage that have nothing to do with Haeckel.

That's good science, and it shows an admission Haeckel was the "most comprehensive data" behind the idea and that the idea was promoted by Haeckel.

So, you admit that the scientists who have abandoned Haeckel's data and talk about all the other evidence instead are practicing good science?

You can argue he was wrong but to pretend he doesn't reference Haeckel is absurd. This is the abstract even. It's the principal summary of the purpose and objective of the paper.

Because this isn't related to the claim you were making. You can't say "evolution continues to rely on Haeckel's faked data as evidence even after it was shown to be faked", and then point to the the paper where it was shown to be faked and nothing that scientists wrote or said afterwards as proof that they still use the data.

And I think you know that all too well, which is why you keep ignoring my actual question.

Now, show me where and how scientists rely on Haeckel's data after Richardson's 1997 paper pointing out the problems with Haeckel's data. Or admit that they practice good science by stopping their use of Haeckel's data once the problems were identified by another scientist (not a creationist or IDer, you'll note).
 
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Much as I admire your tenacity I think its wasted. Randman seems to not realise science is progressive it changes over time as new discoveries are added and methods refined, all creationists and IDists seem to view science data with woo tinted goggles like its religious dogma. Even should you prove the point he'll be throwing the same tired arguments at someone else next week if not before. Reading comprehension seems to be beyond their remit. I've looked at dozens of these discussions and realised as others have noted people who cling to this mantra seem incapable of learning or simply do not wish to.
 

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