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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

Darwin accepted recapitulation as well and actually argued for an extreme version of it.

The NCSE critique appeals to the authority of some "prominent Darwin scholars," but Darwin's actual words contradict those scholars:

"With some animals the successive variations may have supervened at a very early period of life, or the steps may have been inherited at an earlier age than that at which they first occurred. In either of these cases, the young or embryo will closely resemble the mature parent-form." (The Origin of Species, 6th edition, p. 393)

"It is highly probable that with many animals the embryonic or larval stages show us, more or less completely, the condition of the progenitor of the whole group in its adult state." (op. cit., p. 395)

"As the embryo often shows us more or less plainly the structure of the less modified and ancient progenitor of the group, we can see why ancient and extinct forms so often resemble in their adult state the embryos of existing species of the same class." (op. cit., p. 396)

"Embryology rises greatly in interest, when we look at the embryo as a picture, more or less obscured, of the progenitor, either in its adult or larval state, of all the members of the same great class." (op. cit., p. 396) [6]

http://www2.exploreevolution.com/ex...bate/2009/02/haeckel_darwin_and_textbooks.php

These are quotes from "The Origin of the Species", 6th edition. Obviously, Darwin used the Biogenetic Law and perhaps a much more extreme example of it as evidence for evolution, which makes one wonder if Darwin was the originator of the adult-form concept of the Biogenetic Law that is attributed to Haeckel.

Note the utter bs from the NCSE for suggesting Wells' was wrong.

Intelligent design proponents have a tradition of flogging embryology in order to attack common descent (Wells 2000, 2003, 2005). Explore Evolution continues this tradition of misrepresenting embryology and evolution. The first misrepresentation is the claim that Darwin accepted Haeckel's Biogenetic Law. /QUOTE]

http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/ontongeny-phylogeny

Guess the quotes from the Origin of the Species just didn't exist in their world. Actually all they did is something you have done here. They just repeated the current evo claims assuming they must be true because some evolutionist told them so.

Darwin clearly believed and used the adult form recapitulation in his writings contrary to evo claims today.
 
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Perhaps this is because I went to school in Oklahoma.

ya think?

And on your other comment, no straw man. Just establishing historical truth on Haeckel; how his drawings were used and still are, his influence, his doctoring data, etc,....

Evos like ANTPogo want to whitewash what has gone on or listens to those that do. It's important to realize a cultural issue among the evo community, how they circle the wagons and keep on using doctored data and don't think it's a big deal, etc,....It has taken over 130 years of sustained criticism to get evos to begin to admit Haeckel, a real father of their faith, faked his data and some other things.

Even then they plead ignorance until 1997. Why? It was no secret. Maybe they didn't know, or heard but something with their minds went into action in censuring the thought out.....I don't know, but it's an incredible story.

How could they not have known?
 
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OK OK OK , this has obviously raised a few hackles (!) are you as keen to point out blunders and bad science when Creationists do it?

Because it looks to me like every single Creationist or ID "Scientist" is guilty of that one. Every single one of them. There have been no examples of the ID crowd doing good science at all, ever. Got any? You'd be the first.

So even if we let you have your triumph over this Haekel stuff and say: "oops, maybe Scientists should have noticed this earlier than they did...", Real science is still miles in front of your crowd of credulous dogmatic superstitious charlatans.
 
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I've checked a few of these C/Idiot and Cretard pages and I've noticed they never show the whole page so one can check to see if the drawings were being used in a historical context or not. Given how much Cretard liars quote mine, I wouldn't be surprised if their slimy slander applies to these textbooks. Futuyma's is known to discuss them in a historical context.

Other's appear to have used modified versions, probably because unlike contemporary photographs, the drawings are public domain and not entirely inaccurate during the later stages of fetal development - especially in the anmiotes.

As I noted earlier though. C/Idiots and Cretards have no interest in actually discussing the evidences of common ancestry from embryology and Evo-Devo. They'd rather flog that horse shaped dark spot on the ground.
 
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They do plenty of good science. I presented a nice piece of work by a creationist on a particular good whale fossil for example earlier in this thread and a number of papers you can find at the Discovery Institute related to Intelligent Design.

Creationism predicted stasis in the fossil record. Darwinism predicted the opposite; hence the PE modification being promoted. Creationism predicted vestigal organs like the thymus and a bunch of others served a purpose. Darwinism predicted otherwise with terrible results for some people as they were butchered.

Front loaders predicted the genetic complexity of the LCA for animals and plants and animals. Darwinists predicted the opposite.

I could go on and on, but the idea IDers don't do good science is just another evo myth like the Biogenetic Law promoted by Haeckel.
 
IDers or those that would be likely called IDers today (Pierre Grasse? maybe for example) predicted epigenetics.

On a personal note, long before I heard of epigenetics, I predicted science would one day see that heritable traits can be affected by what one does in their lives as they are epigenetically, based on my reading of the Bible in the 80s. No, I was not a scientists but based that prediction on an ID perspective, even a creationist one, though not a young earther.

Darwinism was just wrong on that.

one result of epigenetics

The good news: scientists are learning to manipulate epigenetic marks in the lab, which means they are developing drugs that treat illness simply by silencing bad genes and jump-starting good ones. In 2004 the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved an epigenetic drug for the first time.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968-2,00.html#ixzz1Gq858Jod
 
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Note also the papers I linked to by John Davison who cited papers he did as far back as 1984. He advocated front loading and looking to mechanisms to regulate genes outside of DNA. He and others before him have been severely criticized but epigenetics is where science has finally gone.

Just imagine if you funded some of these IDers like we do Darwinists, the progress we'd make.

Nice article below on this btw, but not detailed.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/john-davison-are-you-listening/
 
...
On a personal note, long before I heard of epigenetics, I predicted science would one day see that heritable traits can be affected by what one does in their lives as they are epigenetically, based on my reading of the Bible in the 80s. No, I was not a scientists but based that prediction on an ID perspective, even a creationist one, though not a young earther.

...

You think reading the bible and then guessing stuff is good science?
 
They do plenty of good science. I presented a nice piece of work by a creationist on a particular good whale fossil for example earlier in this thread and a number of papers you can find at the Discovery Institute related to Intelligent Design.

C/Idiot and Cretard quote mining, God of the Gaps and incredulity is not science. Rarely if ever do Cretard articles accurately reflect the actual findings of the original paper. Recently it was discovered that the Chimp Y Chromosome had evolved more since the split with the human LCA. The difference between humans and chimps was as much as the difference between humans and chickens when the whole genome was compared. How did the Cretards spin this? By claiming that humans were more closely related to chickens than chimpanzees.
http://www.icr.org/article/humans-close-chickens-they-are-chimps/

Creationism predicted stasis in the fossil record. Darwinism predicted the opposite; hence the PE modification being promoted.

Creationism doesn't just predict statis, it predicts there would never be any transitional fossils. Not only do we find the predicted gradual evolution that Darwin predicted, we also find periods of PE - the reason being we find so many transitional fossils between higher taxa, and not as many at the species and supspecies level. The biggest reason for the development of PE wasn't that periodic periods of extreme environmental change generate lots of speciation (see, f.ex. the period after the K-Pg extinction event) but that fossilization is rare and we don't get long, continuous series of transitionals like we do with marine invertebrates.

Creationism predicted vestigal organs like the thymus and a bunch of others served a purpose. Darwinism predicted otherwise with terrible results for some people as they were butchered.

I'm not sure these tales of butchery are veracitous, given how much C/IDiots and Cretards lie in their materials, but vestigial structures remain an evidence for evolution in the same way that atavistic structures do as well. Humans have a bunch that we often don't think of - flaring nostrils, wiggling ears and prehensile toes.

Front loaders predicted the genetic complexity of the LCA for animals and plants and animals. Darwinists predicted the opposite.

"Front loading" of DNA is C/Idiot fantasy and ad hoc, not science nor a prediction.
 
Can you provide a link to this biologist De Grasse? I did a quick google and checked wikipedia, but couldn't find him.

Plugging "de Grasse" into the english Wikipedia, I coincidentally found this fellow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
Tyson has argued that intelligent design, which credits complex, yet-to-be-understood phenomena in nature to a higher intelligence, thwarts the advance of scientific knowledge....

Tyson lived next to the World Trade Center and was an eyewitness to the September 11, 2001 attacks. He wrote a widely circulated letter on what he saw.[21] ...

Tyson has collaborated with evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and presented talks with him on religion and science.[23] When asked if he personally believed in a higher power, Tyson responded: "Every account of a higher power that I've seen described, of all religions that I've seen include many statements with regard to the benevolence of that power. When I look at the universe and all the ways the universe wants to kill us, I find it hard to reconcile that with statements of beneficence."

Media appearances

...
Tyson also appeared as the Keynote speaker at The Amazing Meeting 6, a science and skepticism conference hosted by the James Randi Educational Foundation, in June 2008.
:D
 
Try another tack. Here's an idea: Argue a point of modern evolution theory.

How does that work for you?

Or, better yet, provide some positive evidence for Intelligent Design. Like some actual peer-reviewed articles that support it. And by that I mean ones which can't be comprehensively falsified by 2 seconds search with google, like the ones he has thus far presented.

After all, if the best Creationists have to offer is showing where they think evolution is wrong, then it doesn't really say that much for Intelligent Design as a scientific theory in its own right, does it? So, evidence that supports ID, please, not more nitpicking of the Theory Of Evolution based on basic misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the data.

They do plenty of good science.

Then you'll have no problem whatsoever linking to some. Preferably papers published in reputable scientific journals, like Nature.
 
I'm not sure these tales of butchery are veracitous, given how much C/IDiots and Cretards lie in their materials, but vestigial structures remain an evidence for evolution in the same way that atavistic structures do as well. Humans have a bunch that we often don't think of - flaring nostrils, wiggling ears and prehensile toes.
Wiggling ears are clearly an adaptation for hitching your glasses into place when your hands are full.
 
Stop with the totally irrelevant hijack about textbooks, randman (and good job parroting solely what dishonest Creationist websites quote-mine - I've already shown you, for instance, that Darwin's thoughts on recapitulation are a lot more complex than Creationists try to convince people they are). [EDIT: Not to mention that neither you nor your creationist websites understand the difference between "comparative embryology diagrams [or even actual photographs] laid out in a similar way to the ones Haeckel made but having nothing at all to do with any of Haeckel's actual theories" and "Haeckel's actual woodcut depictions that he drew himself and published in the 19th century", and why your blurring of that distinction is being used to cover for the holes in your argument regarding Haeckel in evolution.]

Illustrations in textbooks to show the general similarity of vertebrate embryos to each other to beginning students just grappling with the concept is NOT "science blindly relying on bad data", which is the heart of your criticism of evolution vis-a-vis Haeckel. All of the stuff you just posted is a giant smoke-and-mirrors irrelevancy to try and mask that fact.

Now, address the real issue at the heart of your criticism: if evolutionary scientists rely on Haeckel's "bad data" as evidence and proof, why is he not mentioned, much less cited as evidence, in papers exploring the very concepts you claim Haeckel introduced to evolution, in the very branch of evolutionary science he invented?

Where, in other words, IS this reliance on the Terrible Haeckel in evolution by actual scientists that you're spending so much time decrying?
 
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Wiggling ears are clearly an adaptation for hitching your glasses into place when your hands are full.

Ah, clearly it's not vestigial then since humans since Adam have relied on glasses - he did live to be 800+ years old after all.

Now, address the real issue at the heart of your criticism: if evolutionary scientists rely on Haeckel's "bad data" as evidence and proof, why is he not mentioned, much less cited as evidence, in papers exploring the very concepts you claim Haeckel introduced to evolution, in the very branch of evolutionary science he invented?

Where, in other words, IS this reliance on the Terrible Haeckel in evolution by actual scientists that you're spending so much time decrying?

Not to hypocritically flog the dead horse I have twice alluded to, but you and I both posted an example of modern, contemporary, non-fudged embryology being used to evidence evolution, and he's chosen to ignore those - just as I'm sure he'd ignore the hundreds of other citations we could provide - and would rather stick to his narrative. Why bother arguing against actual, current evidences from contemporary embryological and Evo-Devo research when one can perform a Chick Tractian self-lobotomy, ignore that evidence and just carp endlessly about Haeckel, Piltdown or Lamarckism?
 
I've checked a few of these C/Idiot and Cretard pages and I've noticed they never show the whole page so one can check to see if the drawings were being used in a historical context or not. Given how much Cretard liars quote mine, I wouldn't be surprised if their slimy slander applies to these textbooks. Futuyma's is known to discuss them in a historical context.

Other's appear to have used modified versions, probably because unlike contemporary photographs, the drawings are public domain and not entirely inaccurate during the later stages of fetal development - especially in the anmiotes.

This is the heart of their (and randman's) misrepresentation of the meaning of "Haeckel's drawings" in reference to the embryological comparison diagrams in textbooks.

For instance, take another look at the giant list of textbooks randman posted back in post 932, and you'll see how the use of Haeckel's actual drawings in textbooks isn't even close to what he's claiming it is. It's even more obvious when you look at the original chart in its proper formatting, so randman really has no excuse for missing it.

Each textbook is given a notation of "N" if it doesn't have a comparison diagram, a "NH" if it uses a diagram (but one not derived in any way from Haeckel's work), or a "Y" if it uses Haeckel's original drawing, a redrawn version of Haeckel's original, or a redrawn version of one of those redrawings.

In the overall list of 91 textbooks, there are only 27 textbooks with a "Y", showing that they use an illustration that's either Haeckel's original drawing or derived from his drawing in some way (with two more noted as having at least one specific embryo taken from Haeckel, but with the rest of the embryos not deriving from his work). In other words, only 32% of textbooks published from 1907 to 1969 have comparative diagrams that reproduce or are derived from Haeckel's work.

Randman makes particular mention of the original article's statement that the majority of textbooks in the 40's and 50's had comparative diagrams that reproduce or are derived from Haeckel's work. And that's true: of the 28 textbooks published from 1940 to 1960, 17 of them (61%) are noted as having comparative diagrams that reproduce or are derived from Haeckel's work.

An astute person would wonder why that particular date is the cutoff for the calculation of that majority percentage. Randman certainly didn't, because he'd have noted that of the 11 textbooks published from 1960 to 1969, only three have comparative diagrams that reproduce or are derived from Haeckel's work (or 27%). All of the others either have no comparative diagram, or use original illustrations that aren't Haeckel's or derived from Haeckel's work (with the vast majority using completely original diagrams that don't reference anything Haeckel produced).

And even those three texts that do use a derived diagram aren't actually different textbooks. They're all successive editions of the same book, Moon's Modern Biology. And there were actually four editions of that book published between 1960 and 1969; the last edition of the book that decade, published in 1969, finally drops those Haeckel-derived drawings as well.

From that point forward (as the later study I mentioned shows), original, non-Haeckel comparative diagrams dominated, with Haeckel himself largely ignored in the pages of these texts (and essentially ignored completely by actual scientists) until the resurgence of comparative embryology in the 1990's brought Haeckel's seminal work on the subject back into focus.

But by misleadly describing any use of a comparative embryological diagram, however original, as being derived from Haeckel, Creationists grossly exaggerate the importance of and reliance on Haeckel in biology textbooks. And then, in a grotesque fallacy, they then try to use that falsehood to imply that Haeckel himself, in his drawings and theories, is the basis for actual scientific work as well.

(EDIT:And the article linked above actually attributes the spread of the Haeckel and Haeckel-derived illustrations to the same copyright issues you suggest)

As I noted earlier though. C/Idiots and Cretards have no interest in actually discussing the evidences of common ancestry from embryology and Evo-Devo. They'd rather flog that horse shaped dark spot on the ground.

Which is why they (and randman) prefer rant on and on about the textbook diagram thing, and persistently refuse to address the actual peer-reviewed papers on phylogenetics.

All they have are red herrings.
 
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