Stuntman Shooting

[Davo]

Australian Stuntman killed in music video filming

Link:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...te-to-stuntman-shot-dead-in-bliss-n-eso-video

Incident seems very similar to the Brandon Lee (The Crow ) death.

Just curious as to how this could happen, how could you accidently use a real firearm with real ammo ?

Ok, US I can understand, but OZ usually have pretty strict gun controls.

As I understand you wouldn`t even be shooting blanks from a firearm (my understanding of blanks is that they still fire a wad of card which would still sustain injury.

Just interested to hear someone`s view who has an understanding of film set props and firearms protocol

 

[Ranb]

Just curious as to how this could happen, how could you accidently use a real firearm with real ammo ?

By not paying attention. According to what I saw and read of Lee's death, it exactly that. A scene called for a closeup of a loaded revolver. The crew didn't have dummy loads so some were made from 44 magnum cartridges by removing the bullet, dumping the powder then re-seating the bullet into the brass case. The primers were either not deactivated or done so improperly. The best way to make a primer inert is to load the primed/uncharged cases into the cylinder and drop the revolver hammer/firing pin onto them. They will make a loud pop which tells you they're spent and no longer can ignite anything.

The dummy loads were used in the scene which involved cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger. It seems that one bullet was propelled into the back of the barrel beyond the cylinder and stayed lodged there. Usually when a squib load is fired in a revolver, the bullet is stuck part way between the barrel and the cylinder making the revolver useless. In this case though the bullet remained in the barrel allowing the cylinder to rotate freely when the hammer was cocked.

Later on full power blanks were called for a in a scene that required muzzle flash. With a full load of powder, the stuck bullet was propelled at near to or possibly exceeding normal 44 magnum velocities into the actor's chest killing him.

No one checked the revolver bore clear prior to use. That is why Brandon Lee died.

Ranb

 

[dudalb]

By not paying attention. According to what I saw and read of Lee's death, it exactly that. A scene called for a closeup of a loaded revolver. The crew didn't have dummy loads so some were made from 44 magnum cartridges by removing the bullet, dumping the powder then re-seating the bullet into the brass case. The primers were either not deactivated or done so improperly. The best way to make a primer inert is to load the primed/uncharged cases into the cylinder and drop the revolver hammer/firing pin onto them. They will make a loud pop which tells you they're spent and no longer can ignite anything.

The dummy loads were used in the scene which involved cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger. It seems that one bullet was propelled into the back of the barrel beyond the cylinder and stayed lodged there. Usually when a squib load is fired in a revolver, the bullet is stuck part way between the barrel and the cylinder making the revolver useless. In this case though the bullet remained in the barrel allowing the cylinder to rotate freely when the hammer was cocked.

Later on full power blanks were called for a in a scene that required muzzle flash. With a full load of powder, the stuck bullet was propelled at near to or possibly exceeding normal 44 magnum velocities into the actor's chest killing him.

No one checked the revolver bore clear prior to use. That is why Brandon Lee died.

Ranb

And a blank ,at close range, can kill you.
A blank is a small powder charge with no bullet.If it is discharged close enough to somebody it can injure or kill them from the flame and sheer force.
Remember John Hexam from the 1980's?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

That blanks/dummies are dangerous is something we drill into every new person in my Civil War Reanctment group.

 

[Ranb]

And a blank ,at close range, can kill you.

That blanks/dummies are dangerous is something we drill into every new person in my Civil War Reanctment group.

In Hexum's case what he did seemed to be equal to using a bang stick; a scuba diver's power head. I know of two kinds, those that use standard ammo and those that use blanks. Both work the same way, the hot gases punch through the skin of the fish and turn the insides to mush. The bullet in the power head probably does less damage than the gun powder gases.

 

[Macgyver1968]

By not paying attention. According to what I saw and read of Lee's death, it exactly that. A scene called for a closeup of a loaded revolver. The crew didn't have dummy loads so some were made from 44 magnum cartridges by removing the bullet, dumping the powder then re-seating the bullet into the brass case. The primers were either not deactivated or done so improperly. The best way to make a primer inert is to load the primed/uncharged cases into the cylinder and drop the revolver hammer/firing pin onto them. They will make a loud pop which tells you they're spent and no longer can ignite anything.

The dummy loads were used in the scene which involved cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger. It seems that one bullet was propelled into the back of the barrel beyond the cylinder and stayed lodged there. Usually when a squib load is fired in a revolver, the bullet is stuck part way between the barrel and the cylinder making the revolver useless. In this case though the bullet remained in the barrel allowing the cylinder to rotate freely when the hammer was cocked.

Later on full power blanks were called for a in a scene that required muzzle flash. With a full load of powder, the stuck bullet was propelled at near to or possibly exceeding normal 44 magnum velocities into the actor's chest killing him.

No one checked the revolver bore clear prior to use. That is why Brandon Lee died.

Ranb

To add to this...the "gun wrangler" (the guy whose job it is to check these sort of things) was not on set when the scene was filmed, but they decided to go ahead and shoot the scene anyway. Had he been there, it might have been avoided.

 

[Big Les]

To add to this...the "gun wrangler" (the guy whose job it is to check these sort of things) was not on set when the scene was filmed, but they decided to go ahead and shoot the scene anyway. Had he been there, it might have been avoided.

This was not uncommon at the time; low budget movies did not keep an armourer on set unless they were filming with self-loading/automatic weapons liable to have malfunctions. Revolvers were not considered difficult for a general propmaster to manage. That said, the guy in that case was on his first movie... Lee's death was not a total waste in that sense; movies simply don't do this any more. Or make blanks from live ammunition, or fail to check weapons clear, clean them etc.

This blog post of mine about Lee's death might interest someone; we recreated the circumstances. I was hesitant to get involved but felt it was important to help counter the conspiracy theories.

 

[Dumb All Over]

To add to this...the "gun wrangler" (the guy whose job it is to check these sort of things) was not on set when the scene was filmed, but they decided to go ahead and shoot the scene anyway. Had he been there, it might have been avoided.

For the current incident, it is unclear whether a safety officer was even required.

From the story:

Inspector Tom Armitt told reporters in the hours after the death that “several firearms were discharged during the scene by several actors” but he would not comment on whether a safety officer had been legally required on set.

 

[luchog]

And a blank ,at close range, can kill you.
A blank is a small powder charge with no bullet.If it is discharged close enough to somebody it can injure or kill them from the flame and sheer force.
Remember John Hexam from the 1980's?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

That blanks/dummies are dangerous is something we drill into every new person in my Civil War Reanctment group.

Yup. Even if there's no paper or compressed-powder plug like some of the older blank used; blanks can be dangerous. Most often with smaller calibers, the end is tightly crimped, so the powder has a chance to burn and build up pressure before exiting the barrel, causing a realistic flash and recoil.

When I was in Basic Training in Ft. Jackson, I watched one of my buddies kill a snake with an M16 filled with 5.56 blank. The air pressure and burning gasses were enough to cause serious damage. Basically smashed the snake's head in.

 

[BStrong]

Once upon a time live rounds were used as a matter of course in old gangster and war movies because nobody was much interested in taking the time or effort to manufacture barrels with internal (read as: invisible) blank firing devices allowing gas or recoil operated semi and full automatic firearms to function using blanks.

If you look closely at the muzzle ends of semi and full auto firearms used in movies during the 1930's - 1940's you can often see what looks like a rod mounted inside the muzzle - it is. The earliest BFD's were steel rods lathe turned to be under land and groove diameter, inserted in the muzzle end of the barrel that would allow for a certain amount of gas to escape and cause a muzzle flash, but also would trap enough gas in the barrel to allow the weapon to cycle. It wasn't until much later that movie armorers started manufacturing barrels w/ internal BFD's specifically for semi and full auto weapons.

 

[BStrong]

This was not uncommon at the time; low budget movies did not keep an armourer on set unless they were filming with self-loading/automatic weapons liable to have malfunctions. Revolvers were not considered difficult for a general propmaster to manage. That said, the guy in that case was on his first movie... Lee's death was not a total waste in that sense; movies simply don't do this any more. Or make blanks from live ammunition, or fail to check weapons clear, clean them etc.

This blog post of mine about Lee's death might interest someone; we recreated the circumstances. I was hesitant to get involved but felt it was important to help counter the conspiracy theories.

Thanks - good on you for taking the time to address the nonsense that was getting passed around at the time.

 

[Davo]

Thanks for your informative succinct and fact based responses.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Thanks for your informative succinct and fact based responses.

Agreed. It really highlights how these lessons have already been learned. Makes your linked story even sadder.

 

[Bikewer]

There's a current trend to avoid the use of blanks entirely and use CGI for firing effects. In most cases, this looks really bad if you're a practiced shooter.
I suspect that in the John Wick film, they must have been using CGI because of all the very close-range shooting... But all of that footage looked very good from a technical standpoint.

 

[Ron Swanson]

If you look closely at the muzzle ends of semi and full auto firearms used in movies during the 1930's - 1940's you can often see what looks like a rod mounted inside the muzzle - it is.

I don;t know if the term is still used but we called the devices you detail a "BFA" ... or "Blank Firing Attachment" ... On the 7.62 FNC1A1's we used it allowed exactly as you say, for the firearm to reload ... without it you had to manually reload each shot.

Without the BFA attached the bank's red plastic wad, could split a 16" long 2X6 lengthways, at very close range

 

[Ron Swanson]

Recent new reports he had "two penetrating chest wounds" and was shot at close range ... I'm guessing they had blanks loaded with a powder charge, designed to cycle the auto pistol's slide and reload.

Operantly the script called for several people to fire at the stunt double, and (again I'm guessing) one of them fired within a few inches of his chest.

 

[BStrong]

I don;t know if the term is still used but we called the devices you detail a "BFA" ... or "Blank Firing Attachment" ... On the 7.62 FNC1A1's we used it allowed exactly as you say, for the firearm to reload ... without it you had to manually reload each shot.

Without the BFA attached the bank's red plastic wad, could split a 16" long 2X6 lengthways, at very close range

We use the same nomenclature (BFA) for U.S. service weapons.

Device v attachment basically is internal v external.

With the advent of simunitions

http://simunition.com/en/

The BFA is gradually disappearing from military and LE use.

As far as CGI and movie firearms go, not only does it allow a shortcut in production but allows for a certain amount of dramatic effect wrt muzzle flash - I had no idea that directors had strong opinions on what muzzle flash should look like on film until I had a conversation with a manufacturer of blank ammo used by the industry. He had worked with movie armorers in developing specific BFD's and blank ammo to produce the desired muzzle flash.

Nowadays they just go to CGI.

The issue with movie firearms use that has always made me laugh is how in post production the sound editors would use all types of firearm muzzle reports for dramatic effect - watching a celluloid hero unload a high cyclic rate 9mm SMG while hearing the sound a low cyclic rate heavy machine gun brings a smile. Kind of a cousin to the sound guys adding the sound of a Harley Davidson big twin to a scene where the actor is riding a 4 cylinder sportbike.

 

[CORed]

We use the same nomenclature (BFA) for U.S. service weapons.

Device v attachment basically is internal v external.

With the advent of simunitions

http://simunition.com/en/

The BFA is gradually disappearing from military and LE use.

As far as CGI and movie firearms go, not only does it allow a shortcut in production but allows for a certain amount of dramatic effect wrt muzzle flash - I had no idea that directors had strong opinions on what muzzle flash should look like on film until I had a conversation with a manufacturer of blank ammo used by the industry. He had worked with movie armorers in developing specific BFD's and blank ammo to produce the desired muzzle flash.

Nowadays they just go to CGI.

The issue with movie firearms use that has always made me laugh is how in post production the sound editors would use all types of firearm muzzle reports for dramatic effect - watching a celluloid hero unload a high cyclic rate 9mm SMG while hearing the sound a low cyclic rate heavy machine gun brings a smile. Kind of a cousin to the sound guys adding the sound of a Harley Davidson big twin to a scene where the actor is riding a 4 cylinder sportbike.

Or my favorite, squealing tires in a car chase scene on a dirt road.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Or my favorite, squealing tires in a car chase scene on a dirt road.

That always takes me out of the scene.

 

[The Norseman]

Or my favorite, squealing tires in a car chase scene on a dirt road.

That always takes me out of the scene.

Hammer-click cocking noises on striker-fired pistols! Ugh!

 

[Jules Galen]

Australian Stuntman killed in music video filming

Link:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...te-to-stuntman-shot-dead-in-bliss-n-eso-video

Incident seems very similar to the Brandon Lee (The Crow ) death.

Just curious as to how this could happen, how could you accidently use a real firearm with real ammo ?

Ok, US I can understand, but OZ usually have pretty strict gun controls.

As I understand you wouldn`t even be shooting blanks from a firearm (my understanding of blanks is that they still fire a wad of card which would still sustain injury.

Just interested to hear someone`s view who has an understanding of film set props and firearms protocol

Guns are dangerous,

Don't let nobody put a gun to your head...or your a loser.

Deal.