Students wear "Straight Pride" shirts with Bible verses calling for death

[Skeptic]

Come on Avalon, you're a smart guy, surely you can understand why "Straight Pride" is a cynical reaction to "Gay Pride" Movements.

Probably so, but "pissing off people" is part of what free speech is FOR. As opposed to "calling for the death of other people".

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't see two different ways for either shirt. It's clear to me that both shirts are messages of intolerance against another group -- either gays or nonwhites. What do you see as the alternate interpretation?

You don't think it's legitimately possible for someone to take pride in their ethnic heritage if they define said heritage as "white"? Due to history and current culture, it is highly unlikely that persons doing so at this time and place would not be racists, yes; but that's not inherently always true. In a hundred or two hundred years, perhaps "white" will be a minority, and given to non-racist expressions of ethnic pride or something.

The point was I trying to make is that you can't always judge statements like that on the surface, you have to be aware of the culture you are in. If it's a minority expressing pride, it may be a simple expression of support of whatever it is, or it may be an implied condemnation of whatever it isn't. Likewise if it's a majority making the same statement about itself...but history seems to demonstrate that when a majority feels the need to express such statements about itself, it does so more to exert its perceived superiority over the minority than as a simple expression of "pride".

"Straight Pride" might mean "it's good to be straight!", or it might mean "it's better to be straight". In the context of this culture, at this time, which seems more likely? Straights are the vast majority, it seems unlikely they would feel the need to express messages of support and solidarity for their condition in an effort to elicit sympathy and better treatment from others.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Oh, and I think they should be able to wear shirts that say anything they want. Foolish opinions and bad arguments are better exposed to light and air, where they can rot away. I'd much prefer bigots to advertise!

 

[AvalonXQ]

Come on Avalon, you're a smart guy, surely you can understand why "Straight Pride" is a cynical reaction to "Gay Pride" Movements.

If the people were wearing "Straight Pride" shirts for some reason other than attempting to piss off a group of people, you might have a point. There's no positive agenda, here. Straight people are not being threatened or bullied for being straight. This is just wholesale, teenaged dickishness.

I don't know why anyone would pretend these are perfectly symmetrical expressions.

I agree that that's what's going on here. I don't think the expressions are symmetrical at all.
I still think censoring the shirts is silly and wrong. Authority coming down against this sort of thing sends exactly the wrong message about how to deal with free speech, and about how to engage those with unpopular opinions.

 

[Grey2000]

You don't think it's legitimately possible for someone to take pride in their ethnic heritage if they define said heritage as "white"? Due to history and current culture, it is highly unlikely that persons doing so at this time and place would not be racists, yes; but that's not inherently always true. In a hundred or two hundred years, perhaps "white" will be a minority, and given to non-racist expressions of ethnic pride or something.

The point was I trying to make is that you can't always judge statements like that on the surface, you have to be aware of the culture you are in. If it's a minority expressing pride, it may be a simple expression of support of whatever it is, or it may be an implied condemnation of whatever it isn't. Likewise if it's a majority making the same statement about itself...but history seems to demonstrate that when a majority feels the need to express such statements about itself, it does so more to exert its perceived superiority over the minority than as a simple expression of "pride".

"Straight Pride" might mean "it's good to be straight!", or it might mean "it's better to be straight". In the context of this culture, at this time, which seems more likely? Straights are the vast majority, it seems unlikely they would feel the need to express messages of support and solidarity for their condition in an effort to elicit sympathy and better treatment from others.

Well put.

I would add that its a pity that all ethnic groups can't have a 'x-pride' expression. But you're right something like 'white-pride' would never be viewed as anything but antagonistic.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Oh, and I think they should be able to wear shirts that say anything they want. Foolish opinions and bad arguments are better exposed to light and air, where they can rot away. I'd much prefer bigots to advertise!

Me, too. Heck, when I was in college back in the day, I wrote an opinion article for the newspaper on this exact topic -- there was a movement on campus to forcibly silence hate speech. I argued that we should encourage such speech to be made openly, and seek to engage it civilly.
That's always been my approach.

 

[Babbylonian]

Sorry, but the moment you waste kids' time with something like Conformity Ally Week, you've lost the moral high ground to talk about t-shirts being disruptive to the learning environment.

It's kind of sad amusing that you would equate an anti-bullying event with "conformity" (your sarcastic strike-out aside). School bullies are anti-diversity. They choose their targets based on the things that make the targets different.

 

[Thunder]

Front of shirt says: "Proud to be Muslim".

Back of shirt says: "Death to Infidels".

I wonder how this shirt would go over in a school?

 

[AvalonXQ]

I would add that its a pity that all ethnic groups can't have a 'x-pride' expression. But you're right something like 'white-pride' would never be viewed as anything but antagonistic.

All ethnic groups CAN have such an expression. Irish Pride shirts are all over the place, for example.
But "white" isn't an ethnic group. "White Pride" is nasty because "white" is is a hodge-podge of unrelated groups and is pretty much defined by which minority groups it excludes. Could there be a non-hateful "White Pride" group in a land where "white" represented a small group of Europeans with pretty similar origins and values? Yes. But that's not the U.S.

 

[sadhatter]

Me, too. Heck, when I was in college back in the day, I wrote an opinion article for the newspaper on this exact topic -- there was a movement on campus to forcibly silence hate speech. I argued that we should encourage such speech to be made openly, and seek to engage it civilly.
That's always been my approach.

Where is the line though?

In my high school days i was forbidden to wear a few of my favorite shirts. Nothing offensive on them ( no swearing, no genetalia, no violence.) just imagry that could have been considered wrong ( one example is a shirt for the band the misfits, with the words " legacy of brutality" which is the name of an album. ). or taken in the wrong way. It sucked, but not out of the realm of rationality to do.

It is a system of judgement, if the teachers felt it would cause crap, they put the brakes on it, as a kid i was kind of angry, as an adult i can see the logic.

 

[AvalonXQ]

It's kind of sad amusing that you would equate an anti-bullying event with "conformity" (your sarcastic strike-out aside).

What can I say? I went to an American public school; I was subjected to dozens of these sorts of events. Maybe I'm cynical and shouldn't assume that this event was the same sort of thing, but if you've been a kid or had a kid in this system I suspect you'll agree that conformity is pretty much the only thing these sort of events actually end up teaching.

 

[TragicMonkey]

conformity is pretty much the only thing these sort of events actually end up teaching.

I kind of think that's what school is all about teaching, all the time.

 

[Skeptic]

All ethnic groups CAN have such an expression. Irish Pride shirts are all over the place, for example.
But "white" isn't an ethnic group. "White Pride" is nasty because "white" is is a hodge-podge of unrelated groups and is pretty much defined by which minority groups it excludes. Could there be a non-hateful "White Pride" group in a land where "white" represented a small group of Europeans with pretty similar origins and values? Yes. But that's not the U.S.

Agree 100%, which is why "Irish pride" or "Proud to be Italian" never offend anybody, despite the fact that they naturally exclude Black people, for example. Merely the fact that not everybody can or is a member of a group hardly means supporting it is bigotry.

But that said, "Proud to be European-American" for example I would allow, since it's deliberately excluding and pissing off, yes, but not calling to the death of non-Whites.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I kind of think that's what school is all about teaching, all the time.

I entirely agree with you. Public schools were introduced motivated not by a desire to educate kids but by a desire to control and discipline them. Our current system is primarily about obedience, compliance, and conformity. There are much better systems for developing knowledge and intelligence, but our system isn't optimized to do that anyway.

 

[Babbylonian]

What can I say? I went to an American public school; I was subjected to dozens of these sorts of events. Maybe I'm cynical and shouldn't assume that this event was the same sort of thing, but if you've been a kid or had a kid in this system I suspect you'll agree that conformity is pretty much the only thing these sort of events actually end up teaching.

Perhaps that's just the only thing you actually ended up learning.

Given that I was subjected to about 8 years of near-daily bullying (in American public schools) as a child, I can't see being cynical about schools doing what they can to stop that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Come on Avalon, you're a smart guy, surely you can understand why "Straight Pride" is a cynical reaction to "Gay Pride" Movements.

If the people were wearing "Straight Pride" shirts for some reason other than attempting to piss off a group of people, you might have a point. There's no positive agenda, here. Straight people are not being threatened or bullied for being straight. This is just wholesale, teenaged dickishness.

It could be wholesale christian homophobia and dickishness.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Probably so, but "pissing off people" is part of what free speech is FOR. As opposed to "calling for the death of other people".

The thing is that school needs to be able to be run and not devolve into constant bickering.

 

[Thunder]

Front of shirt: "Jewish Pride"

Back of shirt: "Death to Arabs & Muslims".

...not gonna go over too well.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I entirely agree with you. Public schools were introduced motivated not by a desire to educate kids but by a desire to control and discipline them. Our current system is primarily about obedience, compliance, and conformity. There are much better systems for developing knowledge and intelligence, but our system isn't optimized to do that anyway.

Then we disagree. I think public schools were meant to educate, it's just an unfortunate side effect that in order to do so they wind up creating conformity. Obedience, compliance, and comformity are the result of most organizations of people--that's how they remain organized. The hope is that enough education occurs to justify the side effects. And of course conformity is itself a valuable skill if the students plan to work in business, religion, politics, or anything else.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Perhaps that's just the only thing you actually ended up learning.

Me? No. I had that discussion with my parents in late elementary school -- whether or not they're teaching you anything is irrelevant; you're there to learn. Find something to learn.
My ability to discern the direction of instruction and the messages presented and implied does not mean that I confined my learning to those arenas. Libraries and intelligent colleagues/adults are wonderful things.

Given that I was subjected to about 8 years of near-daily bullying (in American public schools) as a child, I can't see being cynical about schools doing what they can to stop that.

These events don't do that; if anything they tend to make it a bit worse.