Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

Thanks for watching that garbage so we didn't have to.

No wonder Dan thinks so lowly of UHC systems if he thinks we've nationalised all medical research and drug development! But will he be cross that the person he was relying on to provide the solutions has actually lied to him? That the thinker he trusted to "solve the health crisis" is a two-bit hack who is either lying or seriously lazy at doing research?

I guess - no.
 
Part five. Insurance excess ("deductibles"). Praise for a policy with a £1,000 excess. So for the small things, people pay out of their own pockets, and choose exactly what they want to pay for. (Then the interviewee spoils it by saying "at last I can go to that acupuncturist.... :oldroll: ) Sounds like a system that has advantages - if you have to have insurance at all, that is. So?

This segment is a commercial for this particular type of insurance cover. And it's persuasive. It seems to be a good deal. More of that in the USA and indeed, it looks as if more people would be better off. But hey, this is still insurance. And it's still provided by the employer. Remember where we started? With the people who didn't have insurance because they'd changed jobs or were self-employed? How is this insurance model going to help them? How is it going to bring affordable healthcare to the less advantaged? Nice suggestion, but it goes nowhere at all to address the problems presented at the beginning of the show.

Rolfe.
 
Last segment. The Lasik eye surgery. Completely non-essential, so pretty much no insurance will pay for it. Also outpatient, and low overheads. No anaesthetic, no beds, minimal aftercare. So someone has built a business just offering that. Nice for him. This is going to bring down the price of the quadruple bypass and the brain surgery how, exactly? It's irrelevant, as is the bit about cosmetic surgery tacked on. None of that is healthcare, or needs. It's just a non-essential product that is sold the same way as a massage or hairdressing.

Now we're on to private GP practice, not taking insurance or Medicare. Just the way I used to function in veterinary general practice in the 1970s before pet health insurance came in. Relatively restricted list of things we could do, with a price for each one. Works OK for minor things, for people who have a bit of disposable income. Complete disaster if a patient needs something that isn't minor, and still inaccessible to people who have no money left after paying for basic essentials.

And that's it. Barring the cheap shots at Michael Moore, who is no saint himself when it comes to presenting the biassed agenda and the inapplicable analogy. That part only demonstrated that he who has control of the questions asked and the editing process will always come out on top.

Rolfe.
 
Part five. Insurance excess ("deductibles"). Praise for a policy with a £1,000 excess. So for the small things, people pay out of their own pockets, and choose exactly what they want to pay for. (Then the interviewee spoils it by saying "at last I can go to that acupuncturist.... :oldroll: ) Sounds like a system that has advantages - if you have to have insurance at all, that is. So?

That's the payoff? Have insurance such that even people with insurance still have to fork out when they get sick? Incentivise the avoidance of minor treatment?

That's the plan to save healthcare in America?
 
KellyB, what was really scary for me was seeing a Canadian man who was having a heart attack waiting for an available bed.

Yes an american man with a heart attack waiting for a bed because everyone is using the ER for their primary care medicine is just heart warming though.
 
One problem here is that medical care without insurance is much more expensive than with. I don't think my insurance company has ever paid more than half of a bill. I had throat surgery last year, and of the $17,000 in total costs, the negotiated fees for the insurance company were under $4,000. If you were uninsured and had no hardship, you might negotiate the cost down a bit, with evidence of hardship you might get it down by half and get an interest-free loan, but you could never get it anywhere near $4000. So even if you're wealthy enough to be self-insured, you still need insurance just to avoid getting ripped off. I once had a policy that was catastrophic coverage only, plus they negotiated the fees on the rest. So to avoid getting overcharged, a whole lot of unnecessary billing overhead was added.
 
Yes an american man with a heart attack waiting for a bed because everyone is using the ER for their primary care medicine is just heart warming though.

That is a matter of inappropriate triage. Most ER's seem to have only two categories, "about to die" and "everyone else". If you have sliced your hand open and need some stitches, you have to wait for kids with the sniffles. They need to do some better sorting.
 
Can someone give me back the time I've just wasted spent watching that rubbish?

The state of US health is an example of imperfect markets and vested interests at work. There is no answer other than UHC or stricter Government controls which are not permitted as answers by the OP.

To steal an ongoing argument from another thread, I'm off for my next bout of taxation funded but free at the point of delivery chemo tomorrow safe in the knowledge that I'm getting good care and I don't have to worry about insurance or bankruptcy.

Be well

Steve
It was government that mandated HMOs and the hideous excuse for healthcare they offer. You can thank Richard Nixon and his (government's) institution of the Kaiser model of healthcare, which has little to do with free market capitalism. Prior to that there was little issue with skyrocketing healthcare costs and limited accessibility.
 
What have I got from that?

First, the problems with the US insurance system seem systemic, and serious. The fact that for most people their healthcare is tied to their job is a major drawback. It potentially ties people to the job they have, rather than setting them free to pursue more attractive possibilities, especially possibilities such as becoming self-employed, when that would result in loss of health coverage. It also appears to be a significant cost for employers. It also means that in practice most people don't get to shop around and choose their own insurance cover - they're stuck with what their job provides.

There is also a serious problem with people falling through the net, like the woman who got breast cancer at the wrong time, and became uninsurable. To that we could add the woman (from a report linked from another thread) who was on maternity leave and about to give birth when her company went bust and she suddenly had no health insurance. Or the family referred to by another poster who made a bad choice of insurance policy and found themselves without cover and owing many thousands of dollars.

Not to mention (because the programme didn't) the people who simply can't afford any insurance premium because they don't earn enough, and at the same time don't qualify for Medicaid.

These last problems are problems with entitlement. The woman with breast cancer simply was not entitled to any healthcare funding. The pregnant mother wasn't entitled to any cover for the delivery, and ended up owing about $17,000 as I recall. Which was going to bankrupt her. The family with the poor insurance policy wasn't entitled to any help either. It is quite possible in the USA to find yourself with no entitlement to healthcare funding, either through bad luck or a bad choice. And if you're in that position, tough.

Now if we skip over the false analogies, the next relevant section was really a trawl through universal healthcare systems to find something to frighten the viewers with. And the one section from my own country, I know was grossly misrepresented. The rest of it, well, it's hard to say. It seemed the presenter was cherrypicking the worst aspects he could find. But you know what? I didn't see anyone in that segment in real distress. Nothing to compare to the breast cancer story. A few people who had chosen to access the US healthcare system, and were fine. We don't know if their imaginings about what might have happened if they'd waited in Canada were justified or not. The one Canadian patient we did see was receiving care and treatment, and was merely waiting (quite comfortably) for a bed on a proper ward after an emergency admission.

The difference that was completely fudged was ENTITLEMENT. The Canadian patients, and the English people trying to register for NHS dentistry, and any of the British patients he might have identified who have been in the news because something went wrong and they were badly served, are ENTITLED to health care. And that is immensely empowering. People who have fallen through a crack in an insurance based system are powerless. People who have been let down by a universal system are empowered, because they have not been given something which they should have been given.

They can then complain. Loudly. They can lobby politicians, and vote for the ones who promise the right things, and stage protests at the Houses of Parliament, and whip up hard-hitting press campaigns. And the politicians can't shuffle off responsibility to the free market. It's their responsibility, and they better pony up or pay the price at the next election. Never underestimate the power of the votes of the people who want to see their healthcare improved.

That's how the NHS has improved the waiting times massively. That's how we have guaranteed access to a same-day appointment with our family doctor. Because the people let the politicians know what they wanted, and the politicians negotiated with the doctors to provide these things.

A fascinating programme could have been made, contrasting the freedom people have under universal healthcare systems - freedom to change jobs, to drop out of work (and back into education, or a caring role, or even just take a sabbatical), to become self-employed - all with no effect on their healthcare entitlement - with the restrictions placed on employees where healthcare comes with the job. And contrasting the powerlessness of those in an insurance-based system who fall through the cracks in the system, with the empowerment of people who have healthcare as an entitlement by virtue of their citizenship, and who can (and do) then cause an almighty row if the system doesn't deliver what they're entitled to.

But that woudn't have suited the agenda.

So the presenter didn't want to go the universal healthcare route. We got that. What were his suggestions, then?

Two modest ones. First, that a particular type of high-excess insurance policy was advantageous. Indeed, it did sound as if it had merit. The employer provided the policy, and also provided the amount of the excess, once per year, into a dedicated account that the employee could administer. But how does that even begin to address the problems identified at the beginning? It doesn't. Not even slightly.

Second, that basic primary healthcare practices could be very cost-effective if they didn't waste money and time dealing with insurance companies. If you happen to be someone whose healthcare needs don't cost more than a couple of hundred dollars, and you have a couple of hundred dollars, then they're a good idea. (I'm not quite sure what I think of this great innovative idea that's essentially taking primary human healthcare to where primary veterinary healthcare was in the 1970s, but it's OK as far as it goes.)

But if you're not in that category? You've not just got a minor ear infection, or a cut above your eye from playing football. You've got breast cancer. Like the woman crying her eyes out in the first segment. What good is such a clinic to you? None at all.

The apparent success of the insurance model presented, and the basic primary care clinics, was used to make some larger point about how competition brings down price. Even there, it wasn't really justified. The price came down for the high-excess insured people because the system introduced an element of responsibility. A very similar element of responsibility can be seen in universal systems, where people know that they are accessing a common good fund, and are motivated not to abuse it. And the price came down for the primary clinics because they cut out the insurance company's slice of the action. And there was no attempt at all to widen the analogy and explore how competition might be introduced for things like quadruple bypasses, and just how far that might bring down prices.

The insurance companies, who were criticised initially, were completely let off the hook. The apologia from the insurance representative was accepted uncritically, even though she was saying that one in 33 claims isn't honoured, and that the woman with breast cancer was on her own because she was too expensive. The example of the great reduction in the cost of basic primary healthcare if the insurers are cut out of the loop simply wasn't explored as it might affect other areas of healthcare. (Because, how can you possibly cut insurers out of the loop for the big-ticket items? Oh wait....)

The programme was a mish-mash, it was dishonest in several respects, and it failed to follow through on its own points. What it didn't even attempt to do was to claim that it had the solution to the "healthcare crisis". Because it didn't. I can't even begin to understand how Dan got the impression that it did.

Rolfe.
 
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That's the payoff? Have insurance such that even people with insurance still have to fork out when they get sick? Incentivise the avoidance of minor treatment?

That's the plan to save healthcare in America?


Well, there was no plan, as I pointed out. Just a couple of modest suggestions for tinkering round the edges, which quite patently had no relevance at all to the problem as presented at the start.

The high-excess insurance wasn't that bad though. The deal was that the employer provided the insurance cover, and also the $1,000 excess. That amount was paid into each employee's dedicated healthcare account every year. So they could use it for little things, or it would be there for them if they had a big-ticket item and needed to claim on the insurance proper, or they could let it accumulate. One employee spoke of letting his accumulate until he and his wife had enough money to pay the obstetric fees so they could have a baby.

I guess it's baby or have your ruptured cruciate fixed. But it didn't sound too bad a deal overall.

Just massively worse that what we're used to.

Rolfe.
 
Thanks for waching.
Somehow I am not surprised over the content. Shame Dan would not give a coherent presentation, it would have saved a lot of confusion.
 
Lots and lots of layers of bureaucracy, for a worse service.


Yeah. Better pay out of earnings for small-ticket healthcare items, in case something big hits and I might need the $1,000 pot for the excess on major surgery.

Better give up the football games, honey. I mean, if you get injured, and need surgery, then bye-bye to the fund we were building up in the hope of being able to pay the obstetrician.

But it really is better than that other policy that poor family in the newspaper report went for. That was a low-excess policy. The low excess scared them much less than the high-excess cover that was available for the same price. The problem was the ceiling on the cover, which was very low. But not really having much idea about the actual costs of big-ticket healthcare, they didn't realise how easy it would be to reach that ceiling.

The result was that they reached the ceiling on one incident, then the little boy got appendicitis in the middle of the night. He was screaming in pain, but his mother begged him to wait till morning when they could access medical help relatively cheaply. The result was that the kid ended up with a ruptured appendix and septic peritonitis. Cost a fortune. Which they didn't have.

Of course, in any uiniversal system that kid would have been in hospital hours earlier, and had surgery before the perforation. Thus costing everyone a lot less, and saving his a near brush with death.

I remember an earlier discussion of this case, in which a couple of posters simply said it was the father's responsibility to have made a better choice of insurance coverage, end of story. I still can't fathom the mentality of anyone who takes such a hard-line attitide to personal responsibility that he prefers a system where an understandable mistake by a father worried about cash leads to a child undergoing such suffering, to one where we simply fund the whole shebang out of taxes, and let everyone benefit.

Rolfe.
 
So what is the Capitalist solution to this sort of situation

link

This is a child with no insurance. But he also does not have a life threatening condition so there is no obligation to treat him.

So what capitalist solutions will fix this?
 
So what is the Capitalist solution to this sort of situation

link

This is a child with no insurance. But he also does not have a life threatening condition so there is no obligation to treat him.

So what capitalist solutions will fix this?

:jaw-dropp
 
So what is the Capitalist solution to this sort of situation

link

This is a child with no insurance. But he also does not have a life threatening condition so there is no obligation to treat him.

So what capitalist solutions will fix this?
As a parent that story makes me want to cry.:(
 
Now, haven't I been saying all along that really, the most moral and ethical way to remedy the situation of the uninsured stealing from the insured in the hospitals is to simply lock the uninsured out of the ERs alltogether?
 
It was government that mandated HMOs and the hideous excuse for healthcare they offer. You can thank Richard Nixon and his (government's) institution of the Kaiser model of healthcare, which has little to do with free market capitalism. Prior to that there was little issue with skyrocketing healthcare costs and limited accessibility.

Huh? Where in the world did you pick up that little piece of misinformation?
 
I still don't see whats so scary about waiting for a bed!

The man was treated then was waiting for a permanent bed...not left in a hallway to die from a heart attack.

Okay, so I misunderstood the circumstances. Can we put this to rest now??
 

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