Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

[drkitten]

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

"If Italian cars are so bad, why do so many international F1 race teams drive Ferraris?"

Funny how "Italian cars" includes not only Ferrari but also Fiat....

 

[kellyb]

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

There are wealthy US citizens who travel to Mexico for experimental therapies. Some countries with UHC offer more effective treatments than what insurance companies cover in the US (BEA-COPP chemo in Germany for aggressive lymphoma comes to mind).
Are those cases, in and of themselves, reflective of US healthcare in general?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Because all those people are very wealthy and can afford to access the best healthcare in the world, wherever it may be located.

And that is in the US. So if the best care in the world is here already, we just have to figure out how to make it cheaper, right?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

There are wealthy US citizens who travel to Mexico for experimental therapies. Some countries with UHC offer more effective treatments than what insurance companies cover in the US (BEA-COPP chemo in Germany for aggressive lymphoma comes to mind).
Are those cases, in and of themselves, reflective of US healthcare in general?

So are you saying that people in UHC shouldn't expect to have the best care, just so long as they have some care for the cheapest price?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

So is it okay to compare HC and cars again now?? Because it wasn't on the last page.

 

[kellyb]

And that is in the US. So if the best care in the world is here already, we just have to figure out how to make it cheaper, right?

Not all of the best care is located here. Some of it is Europe. It depends on what's wrong with you.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

KellyB, what was really scary for me was seeing a Canadian man who was having a heart attack waiting for an available bed. It was also pretty scary for the woman on the show who's doctors told here she had to wait months for "elective" surgery that ended up almost killing her. Luckily she made it to the doctors in the US who were able to treat her and BTW said if she would have waited any longer she'd be dead. She wasn't upset at the cost though. She was just fine with being alive.

Whats so scary about waiting for a bed?

The guy had a heart attack and was treated...then waited for a bed.

I don't know the whole situation regarding the woman that went to the US for elective surgery but can say part of the issue with wait times here (in Canada) is due to too many of our doctors going south of the border to make the big bucks.

My mother had a brain aneurysm a few years ago and was saved by our health care system...no waiting.

I have a friend who was just diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and is recieving chemotherapy right now (diagnosis was 2-3 weeks ago).

I spent a good part of my childhood in the hospital due to severe asthma attacks and had to wait for beds many a time. I never had to wait for treatment though.

Stossel is doing the same thing Moore does. Takes an issue then makes a strawman argument around it to scare the heck out of people.

 

[kellyb]

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

There are wealthy US citizens who travel to Mexico for experimental therapies. Some countries with UHC offer more effective treatments than what insurance companies cover in the US (BEA-COPP chemo in Germany for aggressive lymphoma comes to mind).
Are those cases, in and of themselves, reflective of US healthcare in general?

So are you saying that people in UHC shouldn't expect to have the best care, just so long as they have some care for the cheapest price?

I'm really not following you there...seems like a bit of a non sequitur.

But to answer your question, I think everyone should have good, effective care. I think the wealthy should have access to fancy, special, superfluous care above what's reasonable to give everyone, should they wish to pay for it.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Not all of the best care is located here. Some of it is Europe. It depends on what's wrong with you.

I think we probably have the best of most fields here. People want to work were the money is. If we cut cost (which there are tons of ways to do) the the argument of better HC for less money won't hold up for UHC anymore.

 

[Toke]

Sure, if you cut cost to below UHC then UHC would no longer be cheaper.

(which there are tons of ways to do)

I am sure the hospitals and insurance companies will be eager to reduce their prices.

How will you get around the problem of people who cannot afford insurance even at lower prices. You currently have mandatory emergency care, the cost of which will be distributed on other patients.

What is the difference to mandatory insurance adjusted for ability to pay. (TAX/UHC)

 

[kellyb]

I think we probably have the best of most fields here.

What makes you say that?
If we have the best, say, maternity and pediatric care...what's up with out infant mortality rate?

People want to work were the money is.

"Specialist" doctors do make a lot more here.

If we cut cost (which there are tons of ways to do) the the argument of better HC for less money won't hold up for UHC anymore.

What do you mean? "Cutting costs" can include everything from inexpensive preventive medicine that saves money long term, to removing the profit of insurance companies and putting it directly into medical care people recieve.

Healthcare rationing is already a reality in the US. Insurance companies do it all the time.
Do you have evidence that in general, people in the US are covered for more things by insurance than UHC covers elsewhere?

 

[Toke]

Inexpensive preventive medicine that saves money long term is something you do in a UHC system. It is less likely to pay off for an insurance company.

 

[Free Thinkr]

The most obvious point that proves Stossel's point ridiculous is comparing consumer goods to healthcare. You just don't "shop around" for healthcare for numerous reasons, but primary among them the massive asymmetry in information.

 

[oggiesnr]

Very few patients need "the best care", that which is right on the cutting edge and may or may not add a few months or years to a life. Most people need the boring, unsexy stuff. Long term care for a chronic condition like asthma or parkinsons, immediate care for a heart attack or stroke, chemo for treatable cancers, that sort of bread and butter stuff. The measure, for me, of any health system is how well it delivers that stuff to the citizens of the country concerned. Not the select few with wealth, not those who can afford to pay the insurance premiums but to the elderly, the "trailer trash", the unlucky who are also fellow citizens. If you do not recognise that these people are your fellow man then this discusssion is going nowhere, we have a culture clash which is insurmountable.

Steve

 

[Porkpie Hat]

The most obvious point that proves Stossel's point ridiculous is comparing consumer goods to healthcare. You just don't "shop around" for healthcare for numerous reasons, but primary among them the massive asymmetry in information.

Can you imagine shopping around for treatment after getting hit by a bus?

"Excuse me...ambulance driver...can we swing by that cheap clinic at the Walmart. I wanna see how much they charge to re-attach an arm...oh and I need to get this ringworm looked at too."

 

[balrog666]

Can you imagine shopping around for treatment after getting hit by a bus?

"Excuse me...ambulance driver...can we swing by that cheap clinic at the Walmart. I wanna see how much they charge to re-attach an arm...oh and I need to get this ringworm looked at too."

Yes, you can shop around for health insurance in the same manner you shop around for car insurance or house insurance, if you have the option or desire to do so.

But, at the same time, Emergency Room treatment (and mental health treatment and drug rehab and teen angst depression treatment, et al) is covered in all relevant policies - and by Congressional mandate. Or didn't you know that obvious fact?

?

 

[drkitten]

But, at the same time, Emergency Room treatment (and mental health treatment and drug rehab and teen angst depression treatment, et al) is covered in all relevant policies - and by Congressional mandate. Or didn't you know that obvious fact?

In other words, the only part of our current health care system that works is the part that's already Congressionally mandated to be a form of Universal Health Care?

That sounds to me like the strongest possible argument in favor of UHC.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

Yes, you can shop around for health insurance in the same manner you shop around for car insurance or house insurance, if you have the option or desire to do so.

But, at the same time, Emergency Room treatment (and mental health treatment and drug rehab and teen angst depression treatment, et al) is covered in all relevant policies - and by Congressional mandate. Or didn't you know that obvious fact?

?

Actually I didn't know that so thanks for the information...but I was refering to Stossel's segment on 20/20 saying US citizens can bring down the cost of health care by shopping around therefore forfeiting the need for healthcare insurance.

 

[kellyb]

Yes, you can shop around for health insurance in the same manner you shop around for car insurance or house insurance, if you have the option or desire to do so.

But, at the same time, Emergency Room treatment (and mental health treatment and drug rehab and teen angst depression treatment, et al) is covered in all relevant policies - and by Congressional mandate. Or didn't you know that obvious fact?

?

How is this different from what we're doing now?

 

[Free Thinkr]

Yes, you can shop around for health insurance in the same manner you shop around for car insurance or house insurance, if you have the option or desire to do so.

Uh, we're not talking about shopping around for health insurance; we're talking about shopping around for health care.

As far as getting the best prices on the former, all things being considered, the larger the insurer and the more insured, the cheaper the prices, as insurance is all about spreading risk. Eliminating redundancy also obviously saves resources in the insurance industry. Hence, single-payer.

But, at the same time, Emergency Room treatment (and mental health treatment and drug rehab and teen angst depression treatment, et al) is covered in all relevant policies - and by Congressional mandate. Or didn't you know that obvious fact?

?

You're lost, bra. People already shop around for health insurance, and that obviously doesn't reduce prices.