Stormfront Supports Ron Paul

*Sight* I'll use small word ok?
Splendid.

Explain this to me in small words.

A certain service that I require has costs of $500 p/a. A business will charge me this plus $100 p/a as profit. I have a choice between purchasing this service from (a) the company, which will therefore charge me $600 p/a (the cost of the service plus profit) (b) a non-profit organisation which will therefore charge me $500 p/a (the cost of the service).

It seems to me that in the second case, I am $100 p/a better off, but perhaps you will explain to me in small words how I am wrong.

What you seem to be arguing is that a government wishing to make a capital investment in something-or-other might as well buy it from a businessman as make whatever-it-is itself, which may very well be true under idealised economic circumstances, but seems somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Last edited:
One of the problems of measuring efficiency, and effectiveness, in this area is factoring in both cost benefit analysis of running a place, and the metrics of "billions served," ;) as well as the customer based metrics of treatment, and timely treatment, and quality of treatment received.

There be dragons. :cool: I haven't done the kind of rigorous analysis on my own to both identify the correct measures on both facets of that gem. (It would be someone's full time job for some years to do it with sufficient rigor, and I'm not in the business.)

What you are describing isn't actually efficiency... at least not in business terms. I know how business accounting works, so I know that it isn't always a matter of simply showing how great things are and trying to minimize things that don't look so good (though those are definitely part of it). It's all a big justification game with numbers, and when things are going well the job is easier (though not easy... glad I don't do it).

If you want to treat efficiency as a measure of money being put in to healthcare actually being put out, that's going to be s measure that is going to take a little time to drag up numbers for. When I last lived on the East coast I had a couple of family members working for a state hospital system that had recently (somewhere ~ 5-10 years ago) become more privatized (and centralized). I'm not sure how they are doing, but I do see a growing trend of fewer small private practices and more and more clinics and franchise practices for non-hospital care, so I'm betting that the corporatization of private practice, at the least, is a lucrative business. There's certainly more bulk healthcare being put out.

One thing I do notice and have observed, both here in the SouthWest and in the NorthEast, is that even the privatized healthcare is becoming very similar in process and protocol impersonal, schedule-based, and for some fields (like dentistry) sales-oriented (would you like our special gold-laced tooth-colored filling or the plain old kind? there's a free whitening offer with our bonding this month). Is the quality better? Are more people healthy than, say, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago? Are more people healthier under our current health industry than systems in other countries? Should we even broach the pharma issue while covering healthcare?

I'm not really saying much different than what you did, but I'm trying to underscore the things I'm repeating that you said. I actually have a somewhat-formed opinion on what I think might best serve as a healthcare system, but I'm at the point where I'm trying to figure out how it would apply on a practical level in local areas, since I think the national models are useful in debate but both sides skip over a lot of local-based questions (or get mired in them) when debate comes. So I just like to poke at opinions and get some ideas from people who feel strongly one way or the other about why they feel so.

Honestly, the debate tends to seem to me a little too much like one side is screaming "OMG selfish!" while the other is screaming "OMG communist!" and kind of missing the question of "what would be the most efficient for the most people over the most area?" in the process.
 
Government and Racism
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul381.html

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and being thinking in terms of individual liberty."

- Congressman Ron Paul - April 18, 2007
 
Last edited:
Government and Racism
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul381.html

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and being thinking in terms of individual liberty."

- Congressman Ron Paul - April 18, 2007
But this is just the usual right-wing woo-woo's magic mantra for trying to make out that all opposition to racism is racism.

As such, it doesn't make him look good. It makes him look like a stupid mad racist.
 
Last edited:
But this is just the usual right-wing woo-woo's magic mantra for trying to make out that all opposition to racism is racism.

As such, it doesn't make him look good. It makes him look like a stupid mad racist.

Please leave the right wing out of this.

Oliver,

'Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals.

Racists and collectivists both believe that group identity is important. That does not mean that racists are collectivists. Many (not most) of Ron Paul's supporters are not collectivists but they are racist.

'By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. '

Even if his first sentence was correct and racist did imply collectivist, it would not be the case that collectivist implied racist.

'We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and being thinking in terms of individual liberty.'

This is all very well, but it would only work if every person cared equally about the individual liberty of everyone else. The world just does not work like that!

The problem with many libertarians is that they refuse to recognise that many people want the freedom to not respect other people's freedoms.
 
Just guessing: Libertarian? Or heavy fiscal conservative?
Not really, I just took a few economics classes. Enough to realize that most people at any point of the political spectrum tend to have a somewhat biased view of economics. Insisting that the free market can solve any problem, isn't any more economically sound than insisting it can't solve anything.
 
I shall do so the moment their lunatic fringe stops using this daft line of argument.

The mainstream right wing has no more to do with Ron Paul and his supporters than the mainstream left wing has to do with the Anti-Huntingdon mob.

Not to mention that Ron Paul transcends the Right Wing/Left Wing spectrum.

I would point you to threads where Oliver (currently Ron Paul's greatest advocate on these fora) complains about the right wing bias of Fox news and supports Universal Health Care. However, no one should be made to read one of his threads.
 
Please leave the right wing out of this.

Oliver,

'Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals.

Racists and collectivists both believe that group identity is important. That does not mean that racists are collectivists. Many (not most) of Ron Paul's supporters are not collectivists but they are racist.

'By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. '

Even if his first sentence was correct and racist did imply collectivist, it would not be the case that collectivist implied racist.

'We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and being thinking in terms of individual liberty.'

This is all very well, but it would only work if every person cared equally about the individual liberty of everyone else. The world just does not work like that!

The problem with many libertarians is that they refuse to recognise that many people want the freedom to not respect other people's freedoms.


Are you sure you did read Dr. Paul's whole post I linked to?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul381.html
 
But this is just the usual right-wing woo-woo's magic mantra for trying to make out that all opposition to racism is racism.

As such, it doesn't make him look good. It makes him look like a stupid mad racist.

Why do you think he's polling so high? He speaks their language.
 
Splendid.

Explain this to me in small words.
I did, but you didn't seem to get and you example betrays a total lack of understanding of economics, I'll explain.

A certain service that I require has costs of $500 p/a. A business will charge me this plus $100 p/a as profit. I have a choice between purchasing this service from (a) the company, which will therefore charge me $600 p/a (the cost of the service plus profit) (b) a non-profit organisation which will therefore charge me $500 p/a (the cost of the service).

It seems to me that in the second case, I am $100 p/a better off, but perhaps you will explain to me in small words how I am wrong.
Yes, you fail to consider not just why the for-profit business would want 100 dollars in profit, but why you would pay it. If making the product costs 500 why don't you just make it yourself? Probably because, even if the components for the service or products cost 500, it requires work and expertise to hammer the components together into the final product or service.

That means you aren't paying the 100 dollars in profit for nothing, you're paying for the work done. Alternatively it requires an investment (and I covered capital investments in the last post).

So if the non-profit organisation can provide a cheaper service it is because either, the workers agree to work for free at the soup kitchen (or wherever) or because someone has donated some money for which they forego the return on investment they could have gotten from this. In other words there is no efficiency gain. Only other people who are paying some of the cost of the service for you.

In that case there is of cause still a gain for you, however government is not a charity. Government workers do not work for free and if government invests money then they forego return on investment which imposes a cost on the taxpayer equivalent to paying for a private actors return on investment.

In other words of a government can provide a service better or cheaper than the private sector it is not because the government needs no profit, it's for some other reasons such as asymmetric information, monopoly or other market failure.

What you seem to be arguing is that a government wishing to make a capital investment in something-or-other might as well buy it from a businessman as make whatever-it-is itself, which may very well be true under idealised economic circumstances, but seems somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.
No, it’s not irrelevant, it’s what profit is. Profit is not some magical extra cost that a private sector tacks on because they’re greedy. Profit is simply return on investment or pay for time spent on a task. It does not in itself introduce an economic inefficiency.

In case of for example a monopoly the profit can be increased above the normal level, which is inefficient, but that’s a problem with monopoly, not with normal profit.
 
I would point you to threads where Oliver (currently Ron Paul's greatest advocate on these fora) complains about the right wing bias of Fox news and supports Universal Health Care. However, no one should be made to read one of his threads.


*lol* :D

Yes.

Apparently taxation causes racism. Who knew?

Care to address any of my points?


I apologize but I see no reason to discuss this since Paul has
nothing in common with Racism ... besides the Skin color...
Otherwise I wouldn't support him. Plus he would've dodged the
Baltimore Debate as well - just like Giuliani, McCain, Romney,
and Fred Thompson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Presidential_Debates%2C_2008#September_27.2C_2007_-_Baltimore.2C_Maryland
 
Last edited:
I did, but you didn't seem to get and you example betrays a total lack of understanding of economics, I'll explain.


Yes, you fail to consider not just why the for-profit business would want 100 dollars in profit, but why you would pay it. If making the product costs 500 why don't you just make it yourself? Probably because, even if the components for the service or products cost 500, it requires work and expertise to hammer the components together into the final product or service.

That means you aren't paying the 100 dollars in profit for nothing, you're paying for the work done. Alternatively it requires an investment (and I covered capital investments in the last post).

So if the non-profit organisation can provide a cheaper service it is because either, the workers agree to work for free at the soup kitchen (or wherever) or because someone has donated some money for which they forego the return on investment they could have gotten from this. In other words there is no efficiency gain. Only other people who are paying some of the cost of the service for you.

In that case there is of cause still a gain for you, however government is not a charity. Government workers do not work for free and if government invests money then they forego return on investment which imposes a cost on the taxpayer equivalent to paying for a private actors return on investment.

In other words of a government can provide a service better or cheaper than the private sector it is not because the government needs no profit, it's for some other reasons such as asymmetric information, monopoly or other market failure.


No, it’s not irrelevant, it’s what profit is. Profit is not some magical extra cost that a private sector tacks on because they’re greedy. Profit is simply return on investment or pay for time spent on a task. It does not in itself introduce an economic inefficiency.

In case of for example a monopoly the profit can be increased above the normal level, which is inefficient, but that’s a problem with monopoly, not with normal profit.
So, you've got nothing?

That's as I expected.
 
The mainstream right wing has no more to do with Ron Paul and his supporters than the mainstream left wing has to do with the Anti-Huntingdon mob.
Yes, I know. I talked about right wing woo-woos. I talked about the lunatic fringe of the right wing. I'm not trying to tar every right-winger with the same brush --- but Ron Paul's rubbish is fringe woo-woo right-wing nonsense, is it not?

I'm left wing, and I'd be happy to denounce Communists as left-wing woo-woos. They are left wing. They are woo-woos. They are the lunatic fringe of the left. Also, they're nuts in the head. I feel no urge to deny that they're lefties, I just think that they're barking mad.

Do I make myself clear?
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Its driving me crazy that people keep saying "nuts are supporting Ron Paul" like its
supposed to mean anything.
First off these Nuts have to support someone and just because they may be considered crazy or outdated in certain areas of there life, doesnt mean they cant make legitimate political decisions.Also Ron Paul seems to have the most diverse group of supporters then any other canidate. So of course there are going to be nutjobs mixed in!

People like his message and even though some of his ideas might be outlandish and would need the approval of congress anyway he is truly the only canidate i think that really stand for his beliefs, and the only one i could ever trust to look me in the eye and tell me the truth!
I tired of my government leaving me in the dark!

Also for those accusing him to be a racist i must ask why? What do you know that i dont? For i have never seen the man do anything even slightly racist.
 
Its driving me crazy that people keep saying "nuts are supporting Ron Paul" like its
supposed to mean anything.
Well, it's meant to mean that they're nuts.

Should I draw you a picture, or what?

The best you can say for the man is that he's not Badnarik.

What do you know that i dont?
Now there's a book I've not yet written.
 
Well, it's meant to mean that they're nuts.

Should I draw you a picture, or what?

The best you can say for the man is that he's not Badnarik.

Now there's a book I've not yet written.

Oh so Ron Pauls ideas must be crazy because a group of crazy racists endorsed him. I like that philosophy, and it sounds so scientifically sound might i add!
 

Back
Top Bottom