• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

StopSylvia.com - another nice email

Maybe you missed the part where I wrote "try" and "it is tempting to". The latter signifying that I don't actually think like that.

Anyway, I don't think I actually need your permission to "evaluate others in relation to my view".
 
Maybe you missed the part where I wrote "try" and "it is tempting to". The latter signifying that I don't actually think like that.

Anyway, I don't think I actually need your permission to "evaluate others in relation to my view".

This is the internet Dod. You can be anything you wanna be here. You most certainly should not wait for me to give you the green light.

So being above "fools" should not be an issue to one so lofty as you.
 
You come right out of the blue, with no investment in the discussion and no intent of providing any, only to give me a moral lecture because of something you think I said. When I point out you're wrong and that I don't much care for random people telling me off you tell me I'm arrogant?

Does that sum it up? Well played.
 
George, not that it matters, but I had no problem with what you posted.

You had a legitimate question about what I was doing.

I answered it.

you considered my reply, did further reseatch, and modified your position a bit.

I can't ask for more than that.

If others reacted more stridently than you think your posts merited, perhaps it was because others have come here before you with a more agenda-driven "why are you guys picking on Sylvia?" post. For a huge example, find the thread "Stop Robert Lancaster, Slanderer of Sylvia Browne!" - a 1,700+ post trollfest. A careful reading of your posts show them to be entirely different, but some may have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, fairly or not. Sorry about that.
 
ExMinister, I havent read more than a couple of posts in that thread but I'm already impressed with your self-deprecating honesty. I sincerely hope your life has improved.

I dont fully agree with this Brattus fellow though. He sounds just a tad too cynical for me. I realize that some people don't know any better. I wasn't saying that everyone "deep down" (whatever that means) knows it's lies, just that *some* surely do.

Thanks, GeorgeDorn. Yes, my life has definitely improved, and I thank you for the well wishes.

I happened to read something interesting and relevant about just this today. It's called "The Reasonableness of Weird Things," by Daniel Loxton. The whole thing is well written, worth reading and pertinent to this discussion, but here is how he ends it:

However we label ourselves or others, we come up against the fact that people are complicated. Generalizations are doomed to inadequacy. But, I will suggest that the differences between skeptics and paranormal believers have less to do with innate credulity, and more to do with training and resources.

When I was a scruffy young boy, I found a Bigfoot footprint in the wilderness of British Columbia. Devouring every sasquatch book I could find (there were several in my elementary school library), I learned the persuasive facts that many, many people had found footprints or reported encounters with Bigfoot, and that sasquatch photographs had even been taken. Therefore, I believed in Bigfoot.

What I did not have was any understanding of how those many witnesses could all be wrong (myself included), or how on Earth hoaxing could account for most prints. I didn’t have any access to the skeptical books or magazines (still rare today, but then vanishingly so) that could have explained it to me. And, most importantly, I did not know what I did not know. I had to be taught to ask counter-intuitive questions, and I had to be taught how to find the best answers.

I wasn’t born knowing that stuff. Nobody is. As Phil Plait’s speech put it, “Skepticism is hard.” It’s hard, and it has to be taught. And that is how it can be that several hundred thoughtful skeptics at the The Amazing Meeting 8 used to believe in magic.
http://skepticblog.org/2010/07/26/the-reasonableness-of-weird-things/#more-9196

I really liked that.

Maybe it could even help to cheer up anyone lurking, reading these threads, who feels really silly for being "duped" by someone like Browne.
 
Mr. Loxton is correct in arguing that most believers in woo just don't have the access to the right information. The right information has never even reached them. They have never heard the counter arguments. They don't even know that there are counter arguments.

It reminds me of a quote from a Democratic politician (one of the Kennedys, maybe?) that 90 percent of all Republicans are people who have just not yet been informed of the truth. Or that 90 percent of all Republicans are actually Democrats who have not been informed of the right facts. Something to that effect.

Applying this idea (just using the idea here, not getting into anyone's politics or criticizing their political beliefs or affiliations), most believers would be skeptics if they were just given the facts.

If you do present the right information to them, the majority will crack. You give them a reasonable amount of debunking evidence, they will first start to doubt and then seriously waver and then eventually come around.

However, there are indeed people that you could present a mountain of evidence to and they will still go on believing it. That's inexplicable.

You can give them science, psychology, logic, critical thinking, common sense, research, numbers- nothing will do it.

It's truly strange.
 
Last edited:
She just happens to be one of the most well known and visible in today's North American media."

Which makes it also much easier to document her claims than the claims by the old lady who reads Palms two blocks away...
 
And yes, I sat through most of that Bleeping movie. What a steaming pile of Bleep.

One of the strangest claims in that movie is that people cannot see things they didn't know existed because they have no previous concept of that thing. Or something like that.

They cite the example that Native Americans allegedly couldn't see Columbus' ships when they first appeared on the horizon of the New World because they had previously never seen a ship before and had no concept of it. That one elder saw outlines of ships and focused on them and the rest of the tribe could only see them when he pointed them out to the rest of the group and described the ships to them. Something like that, anyway.

This is completely bogus. I can completely disprove it with anecdotal evidence.

My father comes from a country in Eastern Europe. Before he came to America, he didn't know that gray squirrels, chipmunks and porcupines, among other North American species, even existed.

Well, he can see them all right.

When he first arrived in America, my dad took the gray squirrels he saw at a distance for rats. He casually remarked to an acquaintance how many large rats Chicago has running all over the streets. The woman laughed and told him they were squirrels, just gray ones. He couldn't believe squirrels could look like that and insisted they must have been rats. When he took a look at one, he admitted it was indeed a gray squirrel.

When my sister and I were little, we loved TV shows about animals and watched them all the time. We told dad about porcupines, described them to him and told him how they can shoot quills to attack humans and other animals. He thought that we meant hedgehogs. We insisted that they weren't hedgehogs, that they were something different. He said he was sure we meant hedgehogs. We said no.

When we were at a zoo with him some time later, we saw a porcupine exhibit and dragged him to it to show him.

He was rather startled to see such a creature but he admitted it did exist and it wasn't a hedgehog.

Of course, a woo who believes in the "quantum physics" of that movie would say "Aha! He saw it cause you pointed it out to him and described it to him!".
 
Last edited:
I can quite believe that Native Americans might not have been able to describe a ship, or have the faintest idea what one was for, but I would have thought that they were more likely to have been able to see one. They were basically hunters, their livelihood depended on them seeing things that stood out from the 'usual'.
 
Plus, well, it's there. Of course you can see it.

You may think it's crazy, you may doubt your senses and your sanity, you may search for an explanation that comes the closest to what you do know and latch onto it (like explaining away gray squirrels on the streets of Chicago as unusually large and fat rats with fur on their tails) but, yes, you can see it.

If a blue colored androgynous creature from Mars walked into my living room right now and proceeded to eat the curtains and the floorboards, as utterly bizarre as this might be, I'd be able to see it.
 
Last edited:
Plus, well, it's there. Of course you can see it.

You may think it's crazy, you may doubt your senses and your sanity, you may search for an explanation that comes the closest to what you do know and latch onto it (like explaining away gray squirrels on the streets of Chicago as unusually large and fat rats with fur on their tails) but, yes, you can see it.

If a blue colored androgynous creature from Mars walked into my living room right now and proceeded to eat the curtains and the floorboards, as utterly bizarre as this might be, I'd be able to see it.

Because you have already envisioned it! If one of those Native Americans had just said "If some large canoe-like thing filled with pale Europeans ever comes over the horizon..." they would have been able to see it when it did!
 
So is this an accepted scientific theory or is it "What the Bleep Do We Know" silliness?

I don't know enough about metaphysics to be sure but my money is on the latter.

The people on the Snopes message board seem to think it's false/exaggerated:

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=36;t=000801;go=older


My cousin from Poland also didn't know chipmunks existed before she happened to see one during a picnic in upstate New York. She pointed to it and said "Look! Look at that! What is that thing?". People told her "A chipmunk" and when that meant nothing to her, I suggested "Like in the cartoons? Alvin, Simon and Theodore? Chip and Dale?". She didn't know those cartoons- but she could see the chipmunk perfectly well enough.
 
Last edited:
So is this an accepted scientific theory or is it "What the Bleep Do We Know" silliness?

I don't know enough about metaphysics to be sure but my money is on the latter.

The people on the Snopes message board seem to think it's false/exaggerated:

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=36;t=000801;go=older

I'm having a hard time believing it. Native Americans had boats, right? They knew boats could float on the water, right? Did they have sails? I don't know about that, but still, as noted, wouldn't they just note that there is something like a big canoe floating on the water?
 
So is this an accepted scientific theory or is it "What the Bleep Do We Know" silliness?

I don't know enough about metaphysics to be sure but my money is on the latter.

I agree that it is probably closer to the second. There's a big difference between not knowing what something is and not being able to see it. My question is, what are the supposed sources to corroborate this idea? Were there records from the native americans? From Columbus or his crew? How would they have indicated that the Native Americans didn't see the ships? I can think of three ways that would have other, more reasonable explanations:

1. The Native Americans only mentioned that the Europeans appeared.
-True, they would have said nothing of the ships if this were the case, but that doesn't mean they didn't see them, only that they didn't waste the effort in mentioning them.

2. The descriptions given by the Native Americans, either in their own records or in the records of the Europeans, does not match what the ships looked like.
-It can be rather difficult to describe something in a meaningful way, even to someone who knows the thing you are describing. For example, I had an art class where one of the exercises was to draw something described by a blindfolded person who is sitting out of your sight. Very few people in the class managed to draw the item itself although their drawings technically matched the descriptions. And these were common items, like an egg carton or a toothbrush, so the problem was not that we had no concept of these things. It was in the skill of the person making the description.

3. The Native Americans called the ships something else.
-This would make sense in that they might not have a word for the ships, but it does mean that they saw them. However, someone reading the record may not realize that they are refering to the ships.


I find it very hard to believe that Native Americans living on the coastline would have absolutely no concept of ships-that implies that they also could not concieve of something floating on the water.
 
Last edited:
One of the most well known slave narratives is by Olaudah Equiano, who was taken from present day Nigeria as a little boy, sold by African slaveholders to other African slaveholders, trafficked throughout Africa, eventually brought to the coast, sold by black slaveowners to white slavetraders and shipped to first the Caribbean and then to America and finally to England.

Here is how he describes seeing white people and ships for the first time:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15399/15399-h/15399-h.htm

"The first object which saluted my eyes when I arrived on the coast was the sea, and a slave ship, which was then riding at anchor, and waiting for its cargo. These filled me with astonishment, which was soon converted into terror when I was carried on board. I was immediately handled and tossed up to see if I were sound by some of the crew; and I was now persuaded that I had gotten into a world of bad spirits, and that they were going to kill me.

Their complexions too differing so much from ours, their long hair, and the language they spoke, (which was very different from any I had ever heard) united to confirm me in this belief. Indeed such were the horrors of my views and fears at the moment, that, if ten thousand worlds had been my own, I would have freely parted with them all to have exchanged my condition with that of the meanest slave in my own country. When I looked round the ship too and saw a large furnace or copper boiling, and a multitude of black people of every description chained together, every one of their countenances expressing dejection and sorrow, I no longer doubted of my fate; and, quite overpowered with horror and anguish, I fell motionless on the deck and fainted.

When I recovered a little I found some black people about me, who I believed were some of those who brought me on board, and had been receiving their pay; they talked to me in order to cheer me, but all in vain. I asked them if we were not to be eaten by those white men with horrible looks, red faces, and loose hair. They told me I was not; and one of the crew brought me a small portion of spirituous liquor in a wine glass; but, being afraid of him, I would not take it out of his hand. One of the blacks therefore took it from him and gave it to me, and I took a little down my palate, which, instead of reviving me, as they thought it would, threw me into the greatest consternation at the strange feeling it produced, having never tasted any such liquor before."

"In a little time after, amongst the poor chained men, I found some of my own nation, which in a small degree gave ease to my mind. I inquired of these what was to be done with us; they gave me to understand we were to be carried to these white people's country to work for them. I then was a little revived, and thought, if it were no worse than working, my situation was not so desperate: but still I feared I should be put to death, the white people looked and acted, as I thought, in so savage a manner; for I had never seen among any people such instances of brutal cruelty; and this not only shewn towards us blacks, but also to some of the whites themselves. One white man in particular I saw, when we were permitted to be on deck, flogged so unmercifully with a large rope near the foremast, that he died in consequence of it; and they tossed him over the side as they would have done a brute.

This made me fear these people the more; and I expected nothing less than to be treated in the same manner. I could not help expressing my fears and apprehensions to some of my countrymen: I asked them if these people had no country, but lived in this hollow place (the ship): they told me they did not, but came from a distant one. 'Then,' said I, 'how comes it in all our country we never heard of them?' They told me because they lived so very far off. I then asked where were their women? had they any like themselves? I was told they had: 'and why,' said I,'do we not see them?' they answered, because they were left behind. I asked how the vessel could go? they told me they could not tell; but that there were cloths put upon the masts by the help of the ropes I saw, and then the vessel went on; and the white men had some spell or magic they put in the water when they liked in order to stop the vessel. I was exceedingly amazed at this account, and really thought they were spirits. I therefore wished much to be from amongst them, for I expected they would sacrifice me: but my wishes were vain; for we were so quartered that it was impossible for any of us to make our escape.

While we stayed on the coast I was mostly on deck; and one day, to my great astonishment, I saw one of these vessels coming in with the sails up. As soon as the whites saw it, they gave a great shout, at which we were amazed; and the more so as the vessel appeared larger by approaching nearer. At last she came to an anchor in my sight, and when the anchor was let go I and my countrymen who saw it were lost in astonishment to observe the vessel stop; and were not convinced it was done by magic. Soon after this the other ship got her boats out, and they came on board of us, and the people of both ships seemed very glad to see each other. Several of the strangers also shook hands with us black people, and made motions with their hands, signifying I suppose we were to go to their country; but we did not understand them. At last, when the ship we were in had got in all her cargo, they made ready with many fearful noises, and we were all put under deck, so that we could not see how they managed the vessel. But this disappointment was the least of my sorrow. The stench of the hold while we were on the coast was so intolerably loathsome, that it was dangerous to remain there for any time, and some of us had been permitted to stay on the deck for the fresh air; but now that the whole ship's cargo were confined together, it became absolutely pestilential.

The closeness of the place, and the heat of the climate, added to the number in the ship, which was so crowded that each had scarcely room to turn himself, almost suffocated us. This produced copious perspirations, so that the air soon became unfit for respiration, from a variety of loathsome smells, and brought on a sickness among the slaves, of which many died, thus falling victims to the improvident avarice, as I may call it, of their purchasers. This wretched situation was again aggravated by the galling of the chains, now become insupportable; and the filth of the necessary tubs, into which the children often fell, and were almost suffocated. The shrieks of the women, and the groans of the dying, rendered the whole a scene of horror almost inconceivable. Happily perhaps for myself I was soon reduced so low here that it was thought necessary to keep me almost always on deck; and from my extreme youth I was not put in fetters. In this situation I expected every hour to share the fate of my companions, some of whom were almost daily brought upon deck at the point of death, which I began to hope would soon put an end to my miseries. Often did I think many of the inhabitants of the deep much more happy than myself. I envied them the freedom they enjoyed, and as often wished I could change my condition for theirs. Every circumstance I met with served only to render my state more painful, and heighten my apprehensions, and my opinion of the cruelty of the whites.

One day they had taken a number of fishes; and when they had killed and satisfied themselves with as many as they thought fit, to our astonishment who were on the deck, rather than give any of them to us to eat as we expected, they tossed the remaining fish into the sea again, although we begged and prayed for some as well as we could, but in vain; and some of my countrymen, being pressed by hunger, took an opportunity, when they thought no one saw them, of trying to get a little privately; but they were discovered, and the attempt procured them some very severe floggings. One day, when we had a smooth sea and moderate wind, two of my wearied countrymen who were chained together (I was near them at the time), preferring death to such a life of misery, somehow made through the nettings and jumped into the sea: immediately another quite dejected fellow, who, on account of his illness, was suffered to be out of irons, also followed their example; and I believe many more would very soon have done the same if they had not been prevented by the ship's crew, who were instantly alarmed. Those of us that were the most active were in a moment put down under the deck, and there was such a noise and confusion amongst the people of the ship as I never heard before, to stop her, and get the boat out to go after the slaves. However two of the wretches were drowned, but they got the other, and afterwards flogged him unmercifully for thus attempting to prefer death to slavery. In this manner we continued to undergo more hardships than I can now relate, hardships which are inseparable from this accursed trade. Many a time we were near suffocation from the want of fresh air, which we were often without for whole days together. This, and the stench of the necessary tubs, carried off many.

During our passage I first saw flying fishes, which surprised me very much: they used frequently to fly across the ship, and many of them fell on the deck. I also now first saw the use of the quadrant; I had often with astonishment seen the mariners make observations with it, and I could not think what it meant. They at last took notice of my surprise; and one of them, willing to increase it, as well as to gratify my curiosity, made me one day look through it. The clouds appeared to me to be land, which disappeared as they passed along. This heightened my wonder; and I was now more persuaded than ever that I was in another world, and that every thing about me was magic. At last we came in sight of the island of Barbadoes, at which the whites on board gave a great shout, and made many signs of joy to us. We did not know what to think of this; but as the vessel drew nearer we plainly saw the harbour, and other ships of different kinds and sizes; and we soon anchored amongst them off Bridge Town."

"Many merchants and planters now came on board, though it was in the evening. They put us in separate parcels, and examined us attentively. They also made us jump, and pointed to the land, signifying we were to go there. We thought by this we should be eaten by these ugly men, as they appeared to us; and, when soon after we were all put down under the deck again, there was much dread and trembling among us, and nothing but bitter cries to be heard all the night from these apprehensions, insomuch that at last the white people got some old slaves from the land to pacify us. They told us we were not to be eaten, but to work, and were soon to go on land, where we should see many of our country people. This report eased us much; and sure enough, soon after we were landed, there came to us Africans of all languages. We were conducted immediately to the merchant's yard, where we were all pent up together like so many sheep in a fold, without regard to sex or age.

As every object was new to me every thing I saw filled me with surprise. What struck me first was that the houses were built with stories, and in every other respect different from those in Africa: but I was still more astonished on seeing people on horseback. I did not know what this could mean; and indeed I thought these people were full of nothing but magical arts. While I was in this astonishment one of my fellow prisoners spoke to a countryman of his about the horses, who said they were the same kind they had in their country. I understood them, though they were from a distant part of Africa, and I thought it odd I had not seen any horses there; but afterwards, when I came to converse with different Africans, I found they had many horses amongst them, and much larger than those I then saw. We were not many days in the merchant's custody before we were sold after their usual manner, which is this:—On a signal given,(as the beat of a drum) the buyers rush at once into the yard where the slaves are confined, and make choice of that parcel they like best. The noise and clamour with which this is attended, and the eagerness visible in the countenances of the buyers, serve not a little to increase the apprehensions of the terrified Africans, who may well be supposed to consider them as the ministers of that destruction to which they think themselves devoted.

In this manner, without scruple, are relations and friends separated, most of them never to see each other again. I remember in the vessel in which I was brought over, in the men's apartment, there were several brothers, who, in the sale, were sold in different lots; and it was very moving on this occasion to see and hear their cries at parting. O, ye nominal Christians! might not an African ask you, learned you this from your God, who says unto you, Do unto all men as you would men should do unto you? Is it not enough that we are torn from our country and friends to toil for your luxury and lust of gain? Must every tender feeling be likewise sacrificed to your avarice? Are the dearest friends and relations, now rendered more dear by their separation from their kindred, still to be parted from each other, and thus prevented from cheering the gloom of slavery with the small comfort of being together and mingling their sufferings and sorrows? Why are parents to lose their children, brothers their sisters, or husbands their wives? Surely this is a new refinement in cruelty, which, while it has no advantage to atone for it, thus aggravates distress, and adds fresh horrors even to the wretchedness of slavery."


Here is how he describes seeing modern devices for the first time:

"While I was in this plantation the gentleman, to whom I suppose the estate belonged, being unwell, I was one day sent for to his dwelling house to fan him; when I came into the room where he was I was very much affrighted at some things I saw, and the more so as I had seen a black woman slave as I came through the house, who was cooking the dinner, and the poor creature was cruelly loaded with various kinds of iron machines; she had one particularly on her head, which locked her mouth so fast that she could scarcely speak; and could not eat nor drink. I was much astonished and shocked at this contrivance, which I afterwards learned was called the iron muzzle.

Soon after I had a fan put into my hand, to fan the gentleman while he slept; and so I did indeed with great fear. While he was fast asleep I indulged myself a great deal in looking about the room, which to me appeared very fine and curious. The first object that engaged my attention was a watch which hung on the chimney, and was going. I was quite surprised at the noise it made, and was afraid it would tell the gentleman any thing I might do amiss: and when I immediately after observed a picture hanging in the room, which appeared constantly to look at me, I was still more affrighted, having never seen such things as these before. At one time I thought it was something relative to magic; and not seeing it move I thought it might be some way the whites had to keep their great men when they died, and offer them libation as we used to do to our friendly spirits. In this state of anxiety I remained till my master awoke, when I was dismissed out of the room, to my no small satisfaction and relief; for I thought that these people were all made up of wonders."

Here is how he describes seeing snow for the first time:

"It was about the beginning of the spring 1757 when I arrived in England, and I was near twelve years of age at that time. I was very much struck with the buildings and the pavement of the streets in Falmouth; and, indeed, any object I saw filled me with new surprise. One morning, when I got upon deck, I saw it covered all over with the snow that fell over-night: as I had never seen any thing of the kind before, I thought it was salt; so I immediately ran down to the mate and desired him, as well as I could, to come and see how somebody in the night had thrown salt all over the deck. He, knowing what it was, desired me to bring some of it down to him: accordingly I took up a handful of it, which I found very cold indeed; and when I brought it to him he desired me to taste it. I did so, and I was surprised beyond measure. I then asked him what it was; he told me it was snow: but I could not in anywise understand him. He asked me if we had no such thing in my country; and I told him, No. I then asked him the use of it, and who made it; he told me a great man in the heavens, called God: but here again I was to all intents and purposes at a loss to understand him; and the more so, when a little after I saw the air filled with it, in a heavy shower, which fell down on the same day."

Reaction to books:

"I had often seen my master and Dick employed in reading; and I had a great curiosity to talk to the books, as I thought they did; and so to learn how all things had a beginning: for that purpose I have often taken up a book, and have talked to it, and then put my ears to it, when alone, in hopes it would answer me; and I have been very much concerned when I found it remained silent."




Well, sounds like he could see all of those things quite well.
 
Last edited:
Speaking of What the Bleep, deceptive books and all that, has anyone ever read The Field, by Lynne McTaggart?

I read that book years back, at a time when I was drinking too much and felt somewhat depressed (now I just drink too much - it's a step in the right direction) and found it to be a fun read. It did have a sprinkling of good information in there (I looked further into it after reading that book and found there were a fair bit of partial truths, bent facts, etc) but it wasn't just what was said in the book that I found deceptive, it was also the things that weren't mentioned. You don't have to lie to misrepresent.

I still like the book in a way, in that if you read it as a feel good, mood-lifter book it serves that purpose quite well (mind you, I haven't reread it since learning quite a bit since then - I may feel different if I read it rather than remember it) but it did make me more skeptical of what I read when I read different takes on some of the experiments that are mentioned.

I do think, though, that it should've been in the self-help section, along with the What the Bleep Do We Know book (I bought that one for the great fractals it has in it, but it does have the odd bit of actual scientific facts in it). The latter book did have a sticker on the back stating it was a Self-Help book, but for whatever reason they were both still sitting in the Science section. Somewhat misleading.
 
I haven't yet - I left for a 10 day holiday in Bali shortly after and was flat out with urgent work stuff for the week preceeding it, so I've had next to no time. Got back a couple of days ago to more busy work and family commitments. Luckily I'm short on cash until my next pay, so I'll have plenty of home-time over the weekend to get stuck into it. (Positive spin, eh?)

But I still have the page up in Firefox at home, and it reopens every time I start my computer. I've resolved not to close it until I've chewed my way through the rest of it!

It's certainly not due to lack of interest, I'm just time poor. (And hair rich, though that's not relevant.)
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom