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StopSylvia.com - another nice email

GeorgeDorn said:
I'm glad on behalf of ExMinister. One seldom hears of people who realize (and admits!) that their blindly held beliefs are wrong. I still have trouble understanding how anyone could believe such preposterous nonsense though. I can see you play it safe and profess yourself an agnostic, whereas I will gladly call myself an atheist. I find notions of gods and ghosts absolutely ridiculous and refuse to invest it with any credibility whatsoever.

I realize that some would call that view religious as long as there is no evidence, but I'm of the opinion that not all views and beliefs are equal. I'm sure some famous free-thinker said some famous words to that effect, but I can't be bothered finding it now as I'm off to see the sandman (yes, figuratively ;)). You probably know anyway.

Sweet Dreams,

[EDIT: Sprinkled some commas in there.]
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I remember reading in one of Randi's books (I thought it was Flim-Flam!, but I have just had a flick through and i can't find the quote I'm looking for)that the possibility of there being a god or gods is so negligible, it can be discounted.

I agree with this view. There is a possibility that there's an invisible, ethereal, mute dragon living in my garden, but that possibility is so negligible it can be discounted. (insert the name of your favoured deity as a replacement for dragon)
 
Adding to what Robert said to George: that someone is simple, simplistic, petty, unremarkable and small in an objective judgment as a person does not mean they don't have a large following, can't have a large influence and can't do a lot of damage. Two bit thugs can have empires behind them that aren't two bit.

Just look at Hitler, Stain and Mussolini.

If this comes too close to Godwin for you, substitute Paris Hilton and Donald Trump.

Or Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Joe McCarthy and Father Coughlin.
 
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Nice to see you getting a positive response like that R, and remember that for every one that emails you there are probably a shedload more who benefitted but didn't take the time to let you know personally.
Keep up the good work!
 
Halfcentaur said:
That's what makes speaking out against this sort of thing all worth it.

I had a friend today (who loves to argue with me about his special idea of god and how it has to be true since AA keeps him sober) recommend I watch a little movie called What the Bleep Do We Know?. Now, if you haven't heard of this movie, I will be surprised. It's basically a bunch of woo dressed up in pseudo science and vague allusions to quantum mechanics. JZ Knight had the thing created as a front for her "cult", in a nutshell, where she channels the 30,000 year old ghost of Ramtha the Warrior, or something to that effect.

While my friend insists his idea of pantheism is infallible, I managed to show him why this movie was not special and life changing, and he thanked me for the clarity.

It feels good when they realize you aren't just being this way because you're a self absorbed skeptic without the ability to surrender to the idea of a greater power,...
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I totally get what you're saying. That is what pushed me a further into skepticism in the first place. A friend of mine not only watched the movie but actually went into a local seminar they did and was actually convinced these people had magical powers :mad:

I was quite sure he was half way of joining the cult.
I managed to dig up too much stuff on that movie that got him to see how abusrd the whole thing is so he dropped it.
Sadly he still jumps from one woo to another but I did manage to pull him out of the more harmful ones.

GeorgeDorn said:
I'm a little puzzled by this anti Sylvia Browne "movement". What's so especially heinous about this Sylvia Browne that you feel the need to be on a personal crusade against her?
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I never heard of browne too before coming up to this site, however, it should be noted that browne is one of the most notable psychics for decades.

And if you are asking what is so horrible about her? Well, I suggest you either read up on RSLancster's site or even just google up "shawn hornbeck"
 
RSLancastr said:
George, I have to ask: who do you think it would have been a better use of my time to focus on?
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I'm not criticizing what you're doing, Mr Lancaster. On the contrary. Cudos to you for doing what you do. No, I was merely curious. It just seemed out of proportion with the website and all but I understand better now I read your site. Even allowing for the possibility of her being in good faith - as absurd and improbable it may sound to you, that Sylvia Browne might be an innocent old lady, harmlessly claiming to have psychic powers and helping other old ladys verify that their cats are safe and content in kitty-heaven - standing up to a person who plays gullible fools for zaps is a pursuit well worth undertaking.

As you noticed, I confess I didn't really have any idea of the sheer scale of her industriously fraudulent conartistry. I understand better now but I still have some questions - or problems with the whole affair. For starters I have difficulty believing grown-ups will even consider there being is such a thing as a "psychic". Even you and your friend (Claus Larsen) with whom you attended the meeting with Sylvia Browne test her with questions and seem almost gratifyingly surprised when she is inevitably defaced as a liar. That may be for the benefit of your readers though, or possibly I'm reading something into it which isn't there. Among us adults we know, that ofcourse there is no such thing as a psychic. Just like there is no such thing as santa claus or the tooth fairy.

Because for me it's like that. It's exactly like the tooth fairy or santa claus. Fairy tales for children or the plot of a bad fantasy movie. It is so obviously wrong that I forget just how much preposterous hogwash people are ready to believe. Being reminded that I share the planet with the people who entertain this absurd nonsense actually scares me. It not even a small minority either. The vast majority, I realize, believe blindly and in the face of opposing facts, in one form of ridiculous fairy tale or other.

It seems I tend to overestimate the free-thinking abilities of my fellow man. Also, as mentioned, the sheer scale of the *industry* that is Sylvia Browne took me a little by surprise. I live in Denmark and we may have our share of "psychics" but nothing on such a grandiose and money-grubbing scale. Also, in Demark we have a taboo which is kind of the reverse of the American. Here it is almost taboo saying that you believe in god (which I find only natural compared to having to hide that you're an atheist out of fear of discrimination). But ofcourse, if you ask enough questions you realize that even though they may not outright believe in the strict abrahamic god they still believe (especially women) in guardian angels and other gaseous entities)


By the way, you claim there is only 36 people living in Denmark called "Howard"? A quick search in the online phone directories gives we well over 100 hits (though that includes both given names, middle names and surnames). I don't know where you got that number but I strongly suspect it's wrong.

TL;DR:
I get it now I read your site. I understand that Browne is a moneygrubbing opportunist who takes advantage of people who are at an emotionally low. Being from the small country of Denmark the sheer scale of the enterprise hadn't registered with me.
 
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GeorgeDorn said:
I'm not criticizing what you're doing, Mr Lancaster. On the contrary. Cudos to you for doing what you do. No, I was merely curious. It just seemed out of proportion with the website and all but I understand better now I read your site. Even allowing for the possibility of her being in good faith - as absurd and improbable it may sound to you, that Sylvia Browne might be an innocent old lady, harmlessly claiming to have psychic powers and helping other old ladys verify that their cats are safe and content in kitty-heaven - standing up to a person who plays gullible fools for zaps is a pursuit well worth undertaking.
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I'm glad you better understand it now.

By the way, you claim there is only 36 people living in Denmark called "Howard"? A quick search in the online phone directories gives we well over 100 hits (though that includes both given names, middle names and surnames). I don't know where you got that number but I strongly suspect it's wrong.
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The quote about frequency of Danish names was from Claus Larsen - a fellow Dane of yours. perhaps I was not clear about that in the article.

And thanks for reading some of what is on my site.
 
GeorgeDorn said:
Even you and your friend (Claus Larsen) with whom you attended the meeting with Sylvia Browne test her with questions and seem almost gratifyingly surprised when she is inevitably defaced as a liar. That may be for the benefit of your readers though, or possibly I'm reading something into it which isn't there. Among us adults we know, that ofcourse there is no such thing as a psychic. Just like there is no such thing as santa claus or the tooth fairy.
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I assure you George that neither Claus nor I were surprised that Browne showed herself to be a fraud that evening. I had already written DOZENS of articles exposing what she is and does. What you may be reading in the article about that evening was my shock and relief about how abysmally bad her handling of my presence was. I guess Ihad overestimated how clever she might be under such circumstances.
 
Nice email, Robert!

Halfcentaur said:
While my friend insists his idea of pantheism is infallible, I managed to show him why this movie was not special and life changing, and he thanked me for the clarity.
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GrandMasterFox said:
I managed to dig up too much stuff on that movie that got him to see how abusrd the whole thing is so he dropped it.
Sadly he still jumps from one woo to another but I did manage to pull him out of the more harmful ones.
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Well done, both of you! :)
 
GeorgeDorn said:
Well, in a way my question still stands. I realize she's a thieving manipulative cold-reader, but there are so many of those out there trying to make a buck off of naïve and / or stupid people. My questions was what Sylvia Browne had done to deserve the extra personal attention, and the answer seems to be that her level of downright greedy nastiness warrants it. :D
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George,

No, Sylvia Browne is no worse than any other alleged psychic out there making a living off other people's gullibility, sorrow and misfortune. She just happens to be one of the most well known and visible in today's North American media. Exposing Sylvia for what she is, by extension, exposes the con game that is "the psychic."
 
I was left with the impression that Sylvia Browne's money-grubbing enterprise was somewhat larger and more systematic / professional than the average psychic out there...?

It would seem some of these psychics fill a socialogical niche. I'm sure many of those who seek the advice of one "really knows better than to believe it" or something along those lines. I'm sure you understand what I mean. It's like they provide a service, paid mind you, that lies beyond the jurisdiction of the church and the professional therapists. That last straw of hope when all else has been tried and didn't work.

I found a funny example on Mr. Lancaster's site... lemme just see if I can dig it up... one sec...

Well, one sec was a little optimistic... I'll have to read some more to find it again. I wont quote it form memeory because it really deserves the context and all.

Anyway, I must admit that sometimes I'm a little hard pressed to feel sorry for the people who get scammed by these vultures. They seem to think that it's just *this* psychic who's a fake and somehow expect talk show hosts and gossip-columns to tell them which are the "real" ones and which are "fake". You'd expect someone who finally took the time to sit down and research a little further to actully find out that there is no such thing as a psychic at all. If they keep entertaining their superstition and throwing money after it, ofcourse someone is bound to come and pick up the cash.

For the life of me I can't understand why people believe in this stuff. I try to stay humble but sometimes it's really really tempting to think to myself, "poor fools" without the "poor" part.

Regards,
 
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Gr8wight said:
George,

No, Sylvia Browne is no worse than any other alleged psychic out there making a living off other people's gullibility, sorrow and misfortune. She just happens to be one of the most well known and visible in today's North American media. Exposing Sylvia for what she is, by extension, exposes the con game that is "the psychic."
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My thoughts, too. Stop James Van Praagh and Stop John Edward, between the 3 sites, will accomplish this in an even bigger way, potentially reaching quite a sizable audience.

GeorgeDorn said:
I was left with the impression that Sylvia Browne's money-grubbing enterprise was somewhat larger and more systematic / professional than the average psychic out there...?

It would seem some of these psychics fill a socialogical niche. I'm sure many of those who seek the advice of one "really knows better than to believe it" or something along those lines. I'm sure you understand what I mean. It's like they provide a service, paid mind you, that lies beyond the jurisdiction of the church and the professional therapists. That last straw of hope when all else has been tried and didn't work.

I found a funny example on Mr. Lancaster's site... lemme just see if I can dig it up... one sec...

Well, one sec was a little optimistic... I'll have to read some more to find it again. I wont quote it form memeory because it really deserves the context and all.

Anyway, I must admit that sometimes I'm a little hard pressed to feel sorry for the people who get scammed by these vultures. They seem to think that it's just *this* psychic who's a fake and somehow expect talk show hosts and gossip-columns to tell them which are the "real" ones and which are "fake". You'd expect someone who finally took the time to sit down and research a little further to actully find out that there is no such thing as a psychic at all. If they keep entertaining their superstition and throwing money after it, ofcourse someone is bound to come and pick up the cash.

For the life of me I can't understand why people believe in this stuff. I try to stay humble but sometimes it's really really tempting to think to myself, "poor fools" without the "poor" part.

Regards,
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There is another poster here, Brattus, who would seem to echo your sentiments (people choose to be deceived even though they know better so it's hard to feel bad for them for being conned, and people who believe this stuff must be fools). A link to a thread where this was discussed some recently: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175487&page=3

I recall that thread because I contributed to it a lot, but there are others if you are interested in a different perspective. Just search around a bit. It comes up often in Robert Lancaster's Sylvia Browne threads.
 
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ExMinister, I havent read more than a couple of posts in that thread but I'm already impressed with your self-deprecating honesty. I sincerely hope your life has improved.

I dont fully agree with this Brattus fellow though. He sounds just a tad too cynical for me. I realize that some people don't know any better. I wasn't saying that everyone "deep down" (whatever that means) knows it's lies, just that *some* surely do.
 
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Orphia Nay said:
Well done, both of you! :)
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The real credit goes of course to Randi and everyone else who make the information available to the public.

One of the specific things that I recall that brought me that day to this site is finding his coverage of the silly water "experiement" of Dr Emoto.
(Only later on I found out that he actually covered the entire movie as well)

Which just goes to show how effective spreading the information is out there and why it so good for people like Randi and RSLancastr that spread out the truth for people to see.

Luckily at least we won't have to hear about that psycho for vey long.
 
GeorgeDorn said:
...snip...For the life of me I can't understand why people believe in this stuff. I try to stay humble but sometimes it's really really tempting to think to myself, "poor fools" without the "poor" part.

Regards,
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George, that is not being humble in any way, shape or form. Just because you "get it" or think you do, does not give you the right to evaluate others in relation to your view.
 
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