Stop poisoning our pets!

[Paradox74]

http://vran.org/about-vaccines/specific-vaccines/pet-vaccines-section/pet-vaccine-myths/

Yup, they are targeting our pets now...those greedy big pharma guys.

 

[AmandaM]

From that site:

"Whereas the medical and veterinary ‘professions’ receive huge sums of money from international multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical conglomerates, please note that homoeopaths do not."


WOW - I wonder what my vet is spending his huge sums of money on?

That whopping annual $65 he gets from me for our dog's vaccines must just be beer money.

 

[Emet]

For dog's sake.

Well, to be fair, there is some real Truth™ mixed in there.

At least in the US, we have been a little too aggressive with vaccinating our pets, and there has been a paradigm shift in thinking about the necessity of some vaccines, and the frequency of administration of most vaccines.

Recommendations have changed, and will probably continue to do so as we obtain more data.

 

[drwfishesman]

Aren't most pet medications, just human medications that have been tested on animals for efficacy?

 

[Emet]

Aren't most pet medications, just human medications that have been tested on animals for efficacy?

Many, if not most are.

Some drugs commonly used in veterinary medicine have never been tested in animals. We use human drugs, sometimes with anecdotal dosages, or informally studied at university veterinary schools.

There are some drugs that are unique to veterinary medicine.

I'm only speaking about the US. YMMV in other countries.

 

[Amapola]

Many, if not most are.

Some drugs commonly used in veterinary medicine have never been tested in animals. We use human drugs, sometimes with anecdotal dosages, or informally studied at university veterinary schools.

There are some drugs that are unique to veterinary medicine.

I'm only speaking about the US. YMMV in other countries.

Emet, I'm curious - is this true for livestock vaccines as well?

The reason I ask is I knew a person up in CO who owned a facility for testing vaccines, wormers, antibiotics etc. for livestock. Also, some of that stuff is labeled for specific species, but it's fairly common to use it in others, what they call "extra label" I think. So while cydectin may be used in cattle and sheep, it's not on the label that you can use it for goats, although it works of course. My impression was, it had been thoroughly tested in cattle and sheep but not goats. Maybe I was wrong though, and that is not true.

And I wonder where all these rich vets are? I've known and worked with about two dozen different vets and *none* of them were rich...

 

[Emet]

Emet, I'm curious - is this true for livestock vaccines as well?

I wouldn't know. I hung up my hoof pick when I graduated. And gave it away, along with my leash with the big chain on the end (we had to purchase them in school).

I'm no historian, but if I had to guess, the downward trend in pet vaccinations may be attributable to at least two things I know about:

1. Dr. Jean Dodds, who is/was well respected, but may now be dabbling in CAM.
Linky
She started speaking out a long time ago. You can find lots of articles she's written about vaccines on the Interwebz.

2. Vaccine associated Feline fibrosarcomas.
Another link.

We've taken a lot of steps to reduce the incidence of these tumors.

This, along with the fact that vaccine testing in animals vs. humans is quite different, I think, and the duration of immunity is not tested the same way. But don't quote me on that.

The reason I ask is I knew a person up in CO who owned a facility for testing vaccines, wormers, antibiotics etc. for livestock. Also, some of that stuff is labeled for specific species, but it's fairly common to use it in others, what they call "extra label" I think. So while cydectin may be used in cattle and sheep, it's not on the label that you can use it for goats, although it works of course. My impression was, it had been thoroughly tested in cattle and sheep but not goats. Maybe I was wrong though, and that is not true.

Extra label use is very common in small animal medicine, and presumably also in large animal medicine. A lot of small animal dewormers came from large animal medicine. Some eventually were tested and formulated for small animals, where concentrations were more convenient. But many small animal practitioners still use the large animal formulations, as they're less expensive.

Some small animal drugs are only approved in one species, usually dogs. They often are used for cats. Look at the label for a very commonly used product here.

And I wonder where all these rich vets are? I've known and worked with about two dozen different vets and *none* of them were rich...

Well, I can only speak about small animal practitioners. Those that own their own practice, or multiple practices do well to very well, as do most specialists. The rest of us... well, I live in an apartment and drive a compact car.

 

[Amapola]

Thanks, Emet. I remember one of my vets showing me that they even used stuff in her practice that was meant for *people* except that if you bought it in a hospital it would cost a lot and her cost was about $1.00 for the exact same thing. (I think it was IV fluids for rehydrating.) I suppose there is just not the time or money to test all these things for specific species. It's annoying to me but to be fair, goats don't provide much to the GNP.

Here's hoping those huge sums of money that those international multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical conglomerates give out to you guys finally arrives in the mail. I'm sure that's all it is... it's in the mail and just hasn't arrived yet.

 

[Battman]

Aren't most pet medications, just human medications that have been tested on animals for efficacy?

Gee, I guess I should have been vaccinated against hantavirus and parvovirus along with the normal MMR vaccinations too. Remember, the placebo effect is useless on animals. My late mutt got his yearly vaccinations and vet visits when required. He passed away last year peacefully in his sleep at the ripe old age of 14. I trust my vet as I believe that he/she really has my pet's health as their first priority. They didn't spend 7 years in university for nothing.

 

[Amapola]

Gee, I guess I should have been vaccinated against hantavirus and parvovirus along with the normal MMR vaccinations too. Remember, the placebo effect is useless on animals. My late mutt got his yearly vaccinations and vet visits when required. He passed away last year peacefully in his sleep at the ripe old age of 14. I trust my vet as I believe that he/she really has my pet's health as their first priority. They didn't spend 7 years in university for nothing.

Agreed. Most diseases animals get do not transmit to humans. If vaccines are only being developed for humans, why have one for a disease only a horse can get?

One point though, although *animals* do not have a placebo effect, their *owners* might. I've seen "chiropractors" (I've got another word for that, but want to stay within the membership agreement) do some "work" on a horse, and the owner afterwards swore the horse was better - even though she looked exactly the same to me, and TBH I did not think there was ever anything wrong with her to start with. I'm sure it happens with dogs and cats too.

 

[Emet]

Welcome to the forum, Battman.

When I answered drwfishesman's question, I assumed s/he was speaking about medicines in general, not vaccines in particular.

Agreed. Most diseases animals get do not transmit to humans. If vaccines are only being developed for humans, why have one for a disease only a horse can get?

Most viruses are species specific, but rabies is a notable exception. Hantavirus does not appear to bother rodents, but they can transmit it to humans.

Zoonotic diseases may not represent the bulk of animal diseases, but they are important nonetheless.

One point though, although *animals* do not have a placebo effect, their *owners* might. I've seen "chiropractors" (I've got another word for that, but want to stay within the membership agreement) do some "work" on a horse, and the owner afterwards swore the horse was better - even though she looked exactly the same to me, and TBH I did not think there was ever anything wrong with her to start with. I'm sure it happens with dogs and cats too.

SBM had a good article about it, where they called it a placebo-like effect.

This vet discussed it here. The first comment is by an occasional SBM writer who has a separate blog-- I like the phrase, placebo effect by proxy.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Many, if not most are.

Some drugs commonly used in veterinary medicine have never been tested in animals. We use human drugs, sometimes with anecdotal dosages, or informally studied at university veterinary schools.

There are some drugs that are unique to veterinary medicine.

I'm only speaking about the US. YMMV in other countries.

Some of Nitro's medications are human meds (i.e., cyclosporine, spironolactone, prednisone, etc.). I think Ursadiol is pet med as is Denamarin.

I get the human meds at the Smith's where I have to sign a waiver saying I am picking up prescription meds for a minor! (because Nitro is only eight!).

In a similar vein, he gets only rabies vaccines, as they are a killed virus whereas most of the others are attenuated viruses - at least, that's my understanding - because we can't afford to activate his immune system. My other dog gets a bunch of other stuff. Only rabies is required here.

 

[drwfishesman]

I don't know about vaccines, I'm sure they work just like any other vaccine. But I have seen valium and even human anti-depressants given to animals. I've also seen Ketamine, which is a horse tranquilizer given to humans.

 

[CarriePoppy]

Seth Mnookin spoke on this at CFI yesterday

His take was that animals actually are a little over-vaccinated, with human health in mind instead of animal health, and that there could be more oversight in this area. Of course, that's certainly not to say we should stop vaccinating our animals entirely.

 

[Emet]

I don't know about vaccines, I'm sure they work just like any other vaccine. But I have seen valium and even human anti-depressants given to animals. I've also seen Ketamine, which is a horse tranquilizer given to humans.

Ketamine was actually first developed as a human drug. It is used in veterinary medicine. But it is a dissociative anesthetic.

And yes, we use many benzodiazepines, including Valium^®, as well as many antidepressants in veterinary medicine.

 

[drwfishesman]

I know the article linked to mentioned vaccines in particular but it promoted homeopathy as an alternative. I've always thought they used homeopathy in place of medications, not vaccines. But I suppose you can't put any amount of nonsense past them. Just seems like we have had very good success treating animals for years.

Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic?....is that why people have emergence hallucinations when they come back form it?

 

[Paradox74]

And to think, I know of a few people who are against vaccination but still vaccinate their pets. The owners don't get the shot but their dog Fido does. It's more sad than funny when people place the health of their pets above their own.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

What annoys me is the implication (common amoung homeopaths) that qualified professionals selling tested medications of demonstrated benefit are exploitative, whereas people selling useless (beyond a placebo) bottles of water or sugar pills at terrifying markup are performing a public service.

 

[EdipisReks]

Remember, the placebo effect is useless on animals.

that's not really true. a dog is perfectly capable of understanding that it's getting special attention when sick, regardless of the veracity or effectiveness of treatment, and could very well act like it's improving due to that. since behavioral observation would be more important in determining effectiveness of medications for animals than for humans, this would have to be taken into account in any trial.

 

[Emet]

that's not really true. a dog is perfectly capable of understanding that it's getting special attention when sick, regardless of the veracity or effectiveness of treatment, and could very well act like it's improving due to that. since behavioral observation would be more important in determining effectiveness of medications for animals than for humans, this would have to be taken into account in any trial.

*cough*

SBM had a good article about it, where they called it a placebo-like effect.

This vet discussed it here. The first comment is by an occasional SBM writer who has a separate blog-- I like the phrase, placebo effect by proxy.