Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[gdnp]

Pragmatically, a retreat to the pre '67 borders would allow for the implementation of the two state solution ( IMHO ) but that would put a significant percentage of Israel's citizens within "crappy rocket" range and before that solution can even be considered, I can see why Israel would want to make sure there's no "funny business" going on in the Palestinian government, like a clause in their charter calling for Israel's destruction.

If I were Israel I would not sign a peace treaty with the PLO or Hamas without the organizations explicitly recognizing Israel's right to exist within the agreed borders and a removal of any statements from charters or constitutions calling for the destruction of Israel.

On the other hand, if I were a Palestinian I would probably not unilaterally renounce the use of violence to combat an often violent occupation. I would leave that to the final peace treaty, as the ANC did in South Africa.

 

[gdnp]

Could you tell me how much land was 'stolen' in the years leading up to 1948 (by force or swindling) as opposed to how much land was purchased legally by the Jews from the Ottomans?

This becomes a thorny question without a simple answer, especially related to more recent land purchases. If you unfairly treat a person so that they have no way of making a living--for example, you block a farmer's access to markets for his crops--and he is forced to sell his land at a fire sale price to avoid forclosure, has it really been purchased legitimately? To the buyer, who had no direct part in the unfair treatment, the answer would be yes: he paid the money and got the deed. To the farmer who lost his farm, the answer would be no: the unfair treatment led to the loss of his land.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

If I were Israel I would not sign a peace treaty with the PLO or Hamas without the organizations explicitly recognizing Israel's right to exist within the agreed borders and a removal of any statements from charters or constitutions calling for the destruction of Israel.

A nitpick-ish question: Do state actors (or states) actually recognize another state's right to exist, or do they usually only recognize their de facto existence?

For instance, Chomsky seems to have some quarrel with the notion of right to exist (from Wikipedia):

Linguist Noam Chomsky has criticized the term "right to exist", claiming it is unique to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and not a normal term used in international relations. He said "The US and Israel have demanded further that Palestinians not only recognize Israel's rights as a state in the international system, but that they also recognize Israel's abstract 'right to exist', a concept that has no place in international law and diplomacy, and a right claimed by no one. In effect, the US and Israel are demanding Palestinians not only recognize Israel in the normal fashion of interstate relations, but also formally accept the legitimacy of their expulsion from their land. They cannot be expected to accept that, just as Mexico does not grant the US the 'right to exist' on half of Mexico's territory, gained by conquest."

Original source here.

 

[a_unique_person]

A nitpick-ish question: Do state actors (or states) actually recognize another state's right to exist, or do they usually only recognize their de facto existence?

For instance, Chomsky seems to have some quarrel with the notion of right to exist (from Wikipedia): Original source here.

I agree. This 'right to exist' obsession is just a distraction. Australia should never have been settled the way it was, with the obscene justification of "Terra Nullus", that is, an empty land. It was not empty, people lived there, but it took about 200 years for the aborginals to even be given citizenship in their own country.

But it exists, and 20 million people can't go anywhere else. The question is, what is a just resolution of the problem? To date, the conservatives have fought tooth and nail to resist a just restitution.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

1337m4n. AFIK the big z, little z thing was made up here. It's workable, I suppose, but why not just say "right wing extremists" instead ? AS the theory goes, we can call the settler movement the Big Z Zionists,

It's not just made up here. the distinction between the actual Zionist movement and just someone who believes in a homeland for Israel didn't just appear out of nowhere on this forum a few days ago.

People have been stifle the criticism of the Zionist Movement for years by bleating that 'zionism' is just a belief in the Jews having a homeland and "how dare you be an anti-Semite for nto wantign the jews to have a homeland!".

In other words they are disregarding the actual pro-active Zionist movement and resolving it down to both a Jewish issue and a small z zionism issue.

but I'm unsure whether we can apply that label to "regular" Israelis. Maybe in a fit of passion/rage ?

Well I don't accuse an Israeli for being a member of the Zionist movement just because they are an Israeli.

 

[Thunder]

Well I don't accuse an Israeli for being a member of the Zionist movement just because they are an Israeli.

This makes as much sense as mayonnaise on a hot dog.

But what else should we expect from an Islamist Apologist.

 

[Thunder]

It's not just made up here. the distinction between the actual Zionist movement and just someone who believes in a homeland for Israel didn't just appear out of nowhere on this forum a few days ago.

A Zionist is anyone who supports the existence of the Jewish State of Israel. Thats all.

There are left-wing Liberal Zionist groups. There are Communist Zionist groups. There are fascist Zionist groups. There are environmentalist Zionist groups.

To label ALL Zionists as having one single agenda and worldview..is pathetic and frankly highly unsophisticated.

But again, Islamist Apologists. What can I say?

 

[Pardalis]

Exclusively?

I was asking TFT's opinion on his claim. He said he agrees Jews should have their own homeland. Try to follow the discussion.

Look, Goury. If the minority of native Canadians take a majority of Canada by declaring the "State of Canadian Natives" or whatever, don't you agree that this would be an act of theft, especially if they kick you out of the place where you are right now?

Irrelevant.

ETA: I would have liked the creation of Canada to have been made intelligently and considerately of the native peoples' rights, and that they should have become a much more intrinsic part of our government, but history happened in another way, we can't change it, the 30 million Canadians can't do anything about it. It's done.

The same thing with Israel, the 7.28 million Israelis can't change what happened 60 years ago. Even if Hamas was right (which they're not, BTW, history is much more complex than your cartoon view of it, I don't need to give you a history lesson about how the Arab countries have their fair share of the blame for the bloodshed and continued violence), Israel is there now.

My point concerning Hamas however is, that people who do not accept the state of Israel, do have every right to do so.

And so the war will continue. Read Hamas' charter, read their rhetoric, it's much more than that.

So what did you expect? That all Palestinians just say "Oh crap" and go away?

I expect the Palestinians to live with the fact that Israel exists and get on with creating their Palestinian state already.

Also, I think that there will be no peace down there because an enforcement to get the seddlers out of Westbank will split the Israeli society. I even assume this issue might have the potential for a civil war in Israel.

You almost sound hopeful.

 

[Pardalis]

People have been stifle the criticism of the Zionist Movement for years by bleating that 'zionism' is just a belief in the Jews having a homeland and "how dare you be an anti-Semite for nto wantign the jews to have a homeland!".

You still are evading my question. They have their homeland. Shouldn't this satisfy you?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You still are evading my question. They have their homeland. Shouldn't this satisfy you?

Have they?

So why are they continuing to expand then?

 

[Pardalis]

Have they?

So why are they continuing to expand then?

I agree they should stop the illegal settlements, but you're still evading my question.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

This makes as much sense as mayonnaise on a hot dog.

of course it doesn't. Are all Israelis members and supportors of the Zionist Movement?

I've seen interviews by ordinary Israelis who are disgusted at the behavior of the Zionists.

But what else should we expect from an Islamist Apologist.

tsk tsk <sigh>

The Zionist Apologists here really do apologize for the Zionist movement.

Where as I despise Islam for being a hideous religion and the Islamists are a bunch of scum.

You can do better that that Parky.

 

[gdnp]

A nitpick-ish question: Do state actors (or states) actually recognize another state's right to exist, or do they usually only recognize their de facto existence?

For instance, Chomsky seems to have some quarrel with the notion of right to exist (from Wikipedia): Original source here.

I don't particularly care, as long as they sign a treaty renouncing their claims on Israeli territory, or recognizing Israel's borders, or whatever wording that you wish signifying that they will not try to retake Israeli land by force.

 

[Cleon]

I was asking TFT's opinion on his claim. He said he agrees Jews should have their own homeland. Try to follow the discussion.

And I answered with my opinion, as this is a thread where anyone may do so. Deal.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I agree they should stop the illegal settlements, but you're still evading my question.

Like it or not, that's the answer.

 

[Pardalis]

And I answered with my opinion, as this is a thread where anyone may do so. Deal.

It gets confusing (and frustrating) when everyone jumps in without reading the contents of the posts one is answering to is all.

Like it or not, that's the answer.

The great Houdini strikes again.

 

[Stout]

If I were Israel I would not sign a peace treaty with the PLO or Hamas without the organizations explicitly recognizing Israel's right to exist within the agreed borders and a removal of any statements from charters or constitutions calling for the destruction of Israel.

On the other hand, if I were a Palestinian I would probably not unilaterally renounce the use of violence to combat an often violent occupation. I would leave that to the final peace treaty, as the ANC did in South Africa.

I fully agree, there's an element of dirtbaggishness on both sides that needs some serious airing out.

 

[Stout]

It's not just made up here. the distinction between the actual Zionist movement and just someone who believes in a homeland for Israel didn't just appear out of nowhere on this forum a few days ago.

I was thinking more in terms of the terminology at hand ( big, little Z ) , rather than the very real concept that not all Israelis are right wing zealots.

People have been stifle the criticism of the Zionist Movement for years by bleating that 'zionism' is just a belief in the Jews having a homeland and "how dare you be an anti-Semite for not wanting the Jews to have a homeland!".

I agree, somewhat, however I thought we were past that argument on these threads but I may have missed something.

Well I don't accuse an Israeli for being a member of the Zionist movement just because they are an Israeli.

Agreed

 

[Thunder]

of course it doesn't. Are all Israelis members and supportors of the Zionist Movement?

why in the name of God would a Jew live in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, if they DID NOT believe in the right of the Jewish State to exist???

this is the essence of Zionism. the belief in the right of the Jewish State to exist in Palestine. all else is politics.

TFT- do you honestly not understand what Zionism means? I thought you were smarter then this.

 

[gtc]

why in the name of God would a Jew live in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, if they DID NOT believe in the right of the Jewish State to exist???

this is the essence of Zionism. the belief in the right of the Jewish State to exist in Palestine. all else is politics.

TFT- do you honestly not understand what Zionism means? I thought you were smarter then this.

He thinks there are zionists who support Israel's right to exist and then there are Zionists who are part of the secret conspiracy to control the world (or whatever it is that secret conspriacies get up to).

When it became obvious that no relatively sane person could argue that all Jews were in on the conspiracy they replaced Jew with zionist but the conspiracy theory stayed the same. Now its obvious that zionists are just people who think that Israel has a right to exist so they have had to create Zionists to describe the Secret Ones.

Same old conspiracy, new names.

I don't know whether TFT is actually aware of the process or whether he just wants to believe that there is some conspiracy out there.