Moderated Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone

Ok, so you are credentialed and qualified to talk about Air Force Mishaps. Have you posted in any threads here about Air Force Mishaps in which your expertise or credentials were questioned?

That's a certificate which beachnut posted a few times around the forum in a few of the CT threads.... Not C7's credentials. I don't believe he's (C7) claiming it as his own, just using it to make his point...
 
Look, folks, I realize that this is a hairsplit of a distinction, but: Chris didn't actually say that certificate was his. And sure, Chris, in spite of my observation, the context you put that in really, really suggests that you're trying to claim it as your own. In doing so, you're really testing the boundary of tolerance. It's best that you clarify whether you were claiming that as your own, or whether you were just making a general appeal to the forum to demonstrate their bona-fides.

Everyone else: Let's keep in mind that he just acknowledged Beachnut's expertise in the area of air accident investigation. If he's making an argument about the strength of authority to judge matters, then his post by his own argument validates all of Beech's criticisms. That's probably an unintended consequence of his post, but hey, people do that sometimes.
 
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You guys constantly call me delusional, liar, coward etc. but then you get all indignant when I say what I think about you. Put it in a sock.

You claim to be a physicist. do you have one of these?

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/967/aircraftcourseorg800zc2.jpg

Seriously folks,

Show your credentials or stop claiming to be anything other than an anonymous smartass.

What you did above, is very close to lying. You could have stated - to avoid deliberate confusion - that the certificate you posted is from BEACHNUT
 
That's a certificate which beachnut posted a few times around the forum in a few of the CT threads.... Not C7's credentials. I don't believe he's (C7) claiming it as his own, just using it to make his point...

Alright, ignore post 537. I understand what he was going for now.
 
You guys constantly call me delusional, liar, coward etc. but then you get all indignant when I say what I think about you. Put it in a sock.

But you didn't say you thought I wasn't what I say I am, you said you knew I wasn't what I say I am. What do you claim to know, and how do you claim to know it?

You claim to be a physicist. do you have one of these?

No, for some reason an aircraft mishap investigation course certificate from the University of Southern California tends not to get issued free along with a physics doctorate.

Seriously folks,

Show your credentials or stop claiming to be anything other than an anonymous smartass.

If I ever chose to commit the fallacy of appealing to my own authority, I might have some reason to post my degree certificate. Since I don't do so, and I freely admit that my qualifications are irrelevant to the value of the content of my posts, I shall continue to choose not to do so. Live with it.

Now, please post the evidence you claim to have that I am not a physicist (as you claimed in post #523), or admit that you were lying when you said "I have read some of your diatribes, debunked Greening's garbage and debated with Newtons Bit and Dave Rogers enough to know that they are not what they say they are."

Dave
 
Christopher7. You are resorting to some pretty silly tactics in this argument.
"The mass that is shed from the tower, characterized by k-out, exits at various velocities ranging from nearly 0 to almost either the air ejection velocity, for fine dust, or to roughly z˙, for large steel pieces."

How do you interpret that section and where does Bazant say what ejected the large steel pieces if not air pressure?

Please state your exact criteria for what credentials you will accept. I would not be happy posting my credentials (if i had any that were relevant) until I was assured that no goalposts could be moved.
Post a verifiable degree and proof that you are that person. Also a license if you have one.
 
"The mass that is shed from the tower, characterized by k-out, exits at various velocities ranging from nearly 0 to almost either the air ejection velocity, for fine dust, or to roughly z˙, for large steel pieces."

How do you interpret that section and where does Bazant say what ejected the large steel pieces if not air pressure?

<snip>

What point are you making here? You noted just a few posts ago that the paper to which you are referring was written less than two weeks after the attacks. Is it unreasonable to expect that it is not comprehensive? I didn't read the first 8 or 9 pages of this thread; are there posters claiming that air pressure alone ejected the steel columns outward, and furthermore, basing that claim on nothing more than the absence of a specification of any other mechanism by Bazant?
 
You guys constantly call me delusional, liar, coward etc. but then you get all indignant when I say what I think about you. Put it in a sock.

You claim to be a physicist. do you have one of these?

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/967/aircraftcourseorg800zc2.jpg

Seriously folks,

Show your credentials or stop claiming to be anything other than an anonymous smartass.

Look at me:

I'm a doctor:



a lawyer:



and a pilot:




And you know, merely because i've posted them, these documents are legitimate and mine.

ETA: Oh, yeah. I forgot, I'm also an engineer:



and I know CPR:

 
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But you didn't say you thought I wasn't what I say I am, you said you knew I wasn't what I say I am. What do you claim to know, and how do you claim to know it?
I know that you know that I know that you don't know what you say you know because it's clear that you don't know what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

If I ever chose to commit the fallacy of appealing to my own authority, I might have some reason to post my degree certificate. Since I don't do so, and I freely admit that my qualifications are irrelevant to the value of the content of my posts, I shall continue to choose not to do so. Live with it.
No worries mate.

Now, please post the evidence you claim to have that I am not a physicist (as you claimed in post #523),
You want I should prove a negative?

Let's get back on topic.

I have been through the Greening and Bazant papers and neither one accounts for the ejected framework sections and other heavy debris. [except for the air pressure section]

They do not account for the weight of the ejected debris or how much energy it took to eject that material or where that energy came from.

Without this critical information their theories are incomplete and they don't work.
 
Chris7
You want I should prove a negative?

Actually it's not that much of a negative because you say you know that he isn't a physicist; it implies you have proof. Show us your proof. Seems fairly simple. Just saying he writes stuff that you disagree with (or more accurately could be said not to understand) is, by no stretch of the imagination, proof.

Chris7
Let's get back on topic.

Or in other words, let's change the subject as fast as possible because I've backed myself into a corner I can't wheedle my way out of.

Bananaman
 
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Ok, so you are credentialed and qualified to talk about Air Force Mishaps. Have you posted in any threads here about Air Force Mishaps in which your expertise or credentials were questioned?

I was in the U.S. Navy for 11 years and an Aviation Electronics Technician for four years. I always found it interesting how many (most?) technical service members would overappreciate, overestimate and overstate their education and certification. In my experience, a lot pf service members would, after receiving their "brake rider" certification, believe they are now a pilot, with extensive knowledge of aerodynamics and aircraft operation. C7 is demonstrating this behavior.

Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course?

LMFAO!
 
What point are you making here? You noted just a few posts ago that the paper to which you are referring was written less than two weeks after the attacks. Is it unreasonable to expect that it is not comprehensive? I didn't read the first 8 or 9 pages of this thread; are there posters claiming that air pressure alone ejected the steel columns outward, and furthermore, basing that claim on nothing more than the absence of a specification of any other mechanism by Bazant?
The ejection of large steel pieces is referred to in a sentence about air pressure. There is no mention of ejection of large steel pieces anywhere else in the document.

If you don't want to put 2 and 2 together then Bazant did not account for the the energy necessary to eject the large steel pieces nor the mechanism to hurl them up to 600 feet.

His theory is therefore incomplete and is not an explanation for the collapse of the towers.
 
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"The mass that is shed from the tower, characterized by k-out, exits at various velocities ranging from nearly 0 to almost either the air ejection velocity, for fine dust, or to roughly z˙, for large steel pieces."

How do you interpret that section and where does Bazant say what ejected the large steel pieces if not air pressure?
I interpret that section this way:

Mass ejected from the towers and therefore no longer contributing to collapse exits at various velocities
  • Air exits at an increasingly velocity tied to the collapse time of a floor
  • Dust closely matches this velocity, due to the relatively low mass increase and similar mechanism
  • Steel exits at roughly [latex]\.{z}[/latex]

There is no mention of mechanism of any kinda, and I have absolutely no idea where you would get the idea that the air ejection is responsible for the steel ejection. They are both energy sinks, that is actions which take energy away from the upper block to be used in crushing the next floor. The mechanism of ejection is somewhat irrelevant if the quantity of energy lost is available. Please note that [latex]\.{z}[/latex] is the derivation of the upper block's coordinate, and the first derivation of position is velocity. So therefore steel exits at roughly the velocity of the descending block. Can you see the mechanism which is implied?

Christopher7 said:
Post a verifiable degree and proof that you are that person. Also a license if you have one.
These require more definition. What is a "verifiable degree"? Is it a degree you can confirm is offered by the school who produced it? Is it a degree with a serial number you can look up? Is it a degree you can hold in your hand etc?

Without these, I certainly would not be willing to produce anything, as there would be nothing stopping you from simply moving the goalposts and saying "Well that degree isn't good enough, i want more proof" forever. Something some truthers are well acquainted with.

edit: Man those [latex]z[/latex]s are ugly. Perhaps my latex is a little too rusty.

edit2:
Christopher7 said:
If you don't want to put 2 and 2 together then Bazant did not account for the the energy necessary to eject the large steel pieces nor the mechanism to hurl them up to 600 feet.

His theory is therefore incomplete and is not an explanation for the collapse of the towers.
What complete rubbish. The force required to accelerate large steel pieces associated with the fraction of mass shed per floor is very clearly calculated at the bottom of the paragraph you are quoting. This is a very dishonest thing to say.
[latex]F_e = \frac{1}{2} K_e K_{out} \mu (z) \.{z}^2[/latex]

PS. My Latex was very rusty.
edit3: Damnit those zs are pretty, but the others are not, maybe it's because I can't include packages but I am blaming international communism for this.
 
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I used to think that something was going on in the world trade center building collapses but now after reviewing the data and vids etc I think that the heat destroyed the structural ability of the steel I beams etc. I have no credentials (I am pastor and have a MA in comparative religion). I did work putting myself through school as a structural and a reinforcing iron worker.

I just don’t see anything but the jets hitting the buildings (I worked on over a span of ten years) and the heat taking the temper out of the steel. Heck we couldn't even use a torch on many of the steel elements in the most of the building because even that bit of heat would make the steel brittle. Think what a few tons of high grade jet fuel would do.

; {>
 
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Just for the sake of accuracy, Rev: The jet fuel burnt out rather quickly; estimates are as low as 4 and as high as 14-some minutes. The source of heat that's responsible for the thermal expansions and sagging has been demonstrated to be the office contents and flammable building components (drywall, etc.) burning.

But yes, I do see your point. It's ridiculous to propose some external element like thermite being present where there were already myriad other fuels available.
 
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I interpret that section this way:

Mass ejected from the towers and therefore no longer contributing to collapse exits at various velocities
  • Air exits at an increasingly velocity tied to the collapse time of a floor
  • Dust closely matches this velocity, due to the relatively low mass increase and similar mechanism
  • Steel exits at roughly
    latex.php
There is no mention of mechanism of any kind,
"The mass that is shed from the tower, characterized by k-out, exits at various velocities."
They are talking about the mass which includes large steel pieces.
"ranging from nearly 0 to almost either the air ejection velocity, for fine dust, or to roughly z˙, for large steel pieces."
They are talking about ejection velocities.
What accounts for the ejection velocity of the large steel pieces if not air pressure?


The mechanism of ejection is somewhat irrelevant if the quantity of energy lost is available.
No,no!
The energy necessary to hurl a great many large steel pieces up to 600 feet in all directions is very significant and must be accounted for.
Furthermore, the mechanism that transferred all that energy to the 4 ton frame work pieces and ejected them up to 600 feet laterally must be explained for any analysis to be considered complete.
This is why I doubt your credentials. That statement is glibly dismissive of two critical factors in the collapse.

Please note that
latex.php
is the derivation of the upper block's coordinate, and the first derivation of position is velocity. So therefore steel exits at roughly the velocity of the descending block. Can you see the mechanism which is implied?
Double talk. What makes it go sideways instead of down?
 

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