Standing against a tide of hatred

[lupus_in_fabula]

I'm not trying to play dueling quotes with you, but I was searching for statements from Hamas to get a feel for their statements about negotiation and their attitude seems schizophrenic. In one interview they claim to refuse to recognize Israel and will fight until the oppressor is swept from their lands. In others, they ask why Israel won't come to the table in good faith and seek a negotiated settlement.

That is indeed a problem which seems to indicate Hamas are split between trying to remain an Islamic resistance movement, yet at the same time trying show it's a political party and worthy of recognition as such. It is a schizophrenic situation and I guess they need such posturing once in a while to secure political, financial and military aid. But let's face it: Palestine or Palestinians haven't exactly been blessed with competent leaders, especially in the sense of long-term implementable vision for building a state. Although we don't really know how much Israel has been able to negate such a coherent formation throughout its history.

What Arabs in former Palestine would have needed early on, is the following: An Ahmad Shah Massoud when it came to fighting and military strategy, and a Tito in terms of building political cohesion and stabilization. What they have gotten instead, is people who have only been somewhat competent in building and keeping a distinct Palestinian cause and heritage – "consciousness", if you like – alive (Arafat), by emphasizing struggle.

Someone trying to figure out what's going on has to reconcile the two approaches Hamas is taking. My take is that Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and Jewish people in general, but is media savvy enough to throw enough PR spin to get people to believe it isn't a group of genocidal terrorists and instead is a legitimate state actor with whom negotiations can be fruitful. I'm guessing you probably have a different interpretation, but the actions and words of Hamas require a lot of interpretation. How that interpretation is conducted is probably subject to the pre-existing filters and biases we all bring to the table.

I somewhat agree with you (as my writing above indicates). But it seems the only way to really see what they are about, is if they are seriously tested; in order to see if they're only about rhetorics. I think there's sufficient pressure by the Palestinians already that could force them to act pragmatically rather than ideologically. If not, they're slowly on their way out. The problem is that Fatah or Abu Mazen aren't exactly what the people wish for either.

 

[gdnp]

Yes. That would have been unnecessary, however, if the Arab world had not repeatedly attacked it with the goal of killing every Jew there.

You make this claim a lot. Undoubtedly, Arab countries have started several wars with Israel over the years. That does not imply, however, that their goal is "killing every Jew there". Iran, for example, has 20,000 Jews. I have no doubt they face discrimination, but is the Iranian government "killing every Jew there?" Did the Arab forces try to kill "every Jew there" during their attacks in the Yom Kippur war? Did the muslims try to kill "every Jew there" under the Brittish Palestine mandate? Are the Jordanians and Egyptians rounding up the remainder of their Jewish populations and executing them?

 

[WildCat]

You make this claim a lot. Undoubtedly, Arab countries have started several wars with Israel over the years. That does not imply, however, that their goal is "killing every Jew there". Iran, for example, has 20,000 Jews. I have no doubt they face discrimination, but is the Iranian government "killing every Jew there?" Did the Arab forces try to kill "every Jew there" during their attacks in the Yom Kippur war? Did the muslims try to kill "every Jew there" under the Brittish Palestine mandate? Are the Jordanians and Egyptians rounding up the remainder of their Jewish populations and executing them?

You think so? And yet, here is what is perfectly acceptable to have on Egyptian TV: A Muslim cleric (Amin Al-Ansari) celebrating the Holocaust and hoping that the next time it will be Muslims doing it to the Jews:
NSFW - graphic images

http://www.liveleak.com/mp.swf?conf...flash_config.php?token=322_1233073285&embed=1

 

[a_unique_person]

You think so? And yet, here is what is perfectly acceptable to have on Egyptian TV: A Muslim cleric (Amin Al-Ansari) celebrating the Holocaust and hoping that the next time it will be Muslims doing it to the Jews:
NSFW - graphic images

http://www.liveleak.com/mp.swf?conf...flash_config.php?token=322_1233073285&embed=1

Have you read what the topic is about? It's claiming all people who don't support Israel and it's actions are trying to bring about another Holocaust. It's not about radicals like that idiot.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059104.html

Israel has a national obsession with everything concerning hasbara (a Hebrew word for "explanation" and referring to information, spin, propaganda or a strategic public relations policy). Every time a warlike event takes place, the Israeli broadcasting networks turn to hasbara experts with the recurring question - what must we do to improve Israel's international image? They really mean "how can we prove to everyone that we're right, they're wrong and everybody hates us and they're anti-Semites?"

 

[gdnp]

You think so? And yet, here is what is perfectly acceptable to have on Egyptian TV: A Muslim cleric (Amin Al-Ansari) celebrating the Holocaust and hoping that the next time it will be Muslims doing it to the Jews:
NSFW - graphic images

http://www.liveleak.com/mp.swf?conf...flash_config.php?token=322_1233073285&embed=1

I have no doubt that there are radical muslim clerics that would like to kill every Jew-or at least state that they would. I also have no doubt that there are radical Jews that would like to force every Muslim out of Israel.

That does not make it the opinion of the majority, or of any government.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I have no doubt that there are radical muslim clerics that would like to kill every Jew-or at least state that they would. I also have no doubt that there are radical Jews that would like to force every Muslim out of Israel.

That does not make it the opinion of the majority, or of any government.

Especially Hamas. Those goddamm jew-lovers would just GIVE Palestine away if they ever got elected.

 

[WildCat]

I have no doubt that there are radical muslim clerics that would like to kill every Jew-or at least state that they would. I also have no doubt that there are radical Jews that would like to force every Muslim out of Israel.

I'm sure there were radica Jews in Germany who would have liked to kill all Christians. But they didn't get elected to power, and neither did the radical Jews in Israel.

That does not make it the opinion of the majority, or of any government.

I beg to differ, particularly in the case of Hamas.

 

[gdnp]

I beg to differ, particularly in the case of Hamas.

Then the way to demonstrate that is to quote Hamas leaders, not some wingnut cleric in Egypt.

 

[a_unique_person]

I'm sure there were radica Jews in Germany who would have liked to kill all Christians. But they didn't get elected to power, and neither did the radical Jews in Israel.


I beg to differ, particularly in the case of Hamas.

Once again, this thread is about people who criticise Israel are seeking genocide of the Jews.

There also seem to be people in Israel who value land more than peace, with the backing of successive Israeli Governments.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

Daniella Weiss moved from Israel to the West Bank 33 years ago. She has been the mayor of a large settlement.

"I think that settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality," Weiss told 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Then the way to demonstrate that is to quote Hamas leaders, not some wingnut cleric in Egypt.

How about in Palestine then?

"Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
[Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Jan. 1, 2009. Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009]

Plenty more where that came from.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Once again, this thread is about people who criticise Israel are seeking genocide of the Jews.

There also seem to be people in Israel who value land more than peace, with the backing of successive Israeli Governments.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

Interesting you complain about people not quoting representatives of the Hamas administration and then you quote the mayor of a settlement to support a point on the Israeli government's policy.

 

[WildCat]

Then the way to demonstrate that is to quote Hamas leaders, not some wingnut cleric in Egypt.

A "wingnut cleric" with no following would be preaching from a street corner.

This was aired on Al-Rahma TV, a station that specializes in anti-semitism and this guy is just one of the clerics on the station.

It costs a lot of money to run a TV station, clearly this isn't a lone nut but someone speaking for a sizeable percentage of the populace.

As for Hamas, their charter is quite clear.

 

[WildCat]

Once again, this thread is about people who criticise Israel are seeking genocide of the Jews.

And I showed you one such example.

There also seem to be people in Israel who value land more than peace, with the backing of successive Israeli Governments.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

In your own words "this thread is about people who criticise Israel are seeking genocide of the Jews." And in the very same post you try to change the subject.

Bizarre.

 

[a_unique_person]

And I showed you one such example.

AA believes

Why should I as an atheist and a non-believer in secular Zionist "national destiny" be pro-Israel? Maybe it's because the default opposite position is the extermination of members of my ethnic group who live in the ancestral homeland, and implicitly everywhere else (if "necessary").

Providing an example of someone who believes in the destruction of Israel does not demonstrate that the 'default opposite position is the extermination of members of my ethnic group'.

 

[a_unique_person]

In your own words "this thread is about people who criticise Israel are seeking genocide of the Jews." And in the very same post you try to change the subject.

Bizarre.

It seemed ironic. In a thread where it appears paramount that the immediate threat of another Holocaust is at hand, the mayor of a settlement seems to show no inclination at all for a peaceful settlement of the situation, but is prepared to tough it out no matter what the cost.

 

[WildCat]

It seemed ironic. In a thread where it appears paramount that the immediate threat of another Holocaust is at hand, the mayor of a settlement seems to show no inclination at all for a peaceful settlement of the situation, but is prepared to tough it out no matter what the cost.

And what does the mayor of some tiny insignificant settlement have to do with the topic?

The goal of Hamas, as sstated in their charter in several places, is to kill Jews. They control the TV stations in Gaza, and feature children's shows where children are taught it is their duty to kill Jews.

Then, in pretty much every anti-Israel demonstration I have seen, people fly Hamas flags and speakers proclaim "we are all Hamas" and the people chant "free Palestine".

You may as well argue that someone flying the swastika and goose-stepping about just admired the Nazi's ability to make the trains run on time. It strains credulity.

 

[a_unique_person]

And what does the mayor of some tiny insignificant settlement have to do with the topic?

The goal of Hamas, as sstated in their charter in several places, is to kill Jews. They control the TV stations in Gaza, and feature children's shows where children are taught it is their duty to kill Jews.

Then, in pretty much every anti-Israel demonstration I have seen, people fly Hamas flags and speakers proclaim "we are all Hamas" and the people chant "free Palestine".

You may as well argue that someone flying the swastika and goose-stepping about just admired the Nazi's ability to make the trains run on time. It strains credulity.

The topic is not does Hamas want to do what it says, but that a 'tide of hatred' has the intention of killing all Israeli Jews. Anyone who is critical of Israel is working to bring that about.

Abdul Alhazred claims.

Why should I as an atheist and a non-believer in secular Zionist "national destiny" be pro-Israel? Maybe it's because the default opposite position is the extermination of members of my ethnic group who live in the ancestral homeland, and implicitly everywhere else (if "necessary").

He is quite clear in what he claims.

If you are not pro, you are anti. If you are anti, you want all Jews, in Israel or anywhere else, if "Necessary", whatever that means, killed.

So he is quite seriously claiming it's much more than Hamas or people that support Hamas that is the issue here.

At the same time that AA is claiming that, we have a mayor of a settlement claiming that she is not interested in peace, but in preventing peace. Why would someone who seems as uninterested in peace as Hamas deserve support?

Abbas has claimed

http://www.theage.com.au/world/israel-doesnt-want-peace-says-abbas-20090129-7t29.html

PALESTINIAN President Mahmoud Abbas claims the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank shows Israel does not want peace.
"The pursuit of colonisation and expansion of settlements inside Palestinian territories shows that Israel has no desire for peace," Mr Abbas said at a joint news conference in Ramallah with European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana.
According to a report published on Wednesday by the pressure group Peace Now, the number of buildings built in Israeli settlements in the West Bank rose by 60 per cent in 2008.
The report was released as US President Barack Obama's Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, met Israeli President Ehud Olmert in Jerusalem.

Given that this dispute is fundamentally about land, why would someone who is interested in peace inflame the situation by taking more and more land? They don't seem to be worried at all about any imminent destruction of Israel or it's population, according to their actions and statements.