Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

[MattusMaximus]

Because this thread is dealing with a different case entirely, and until you just posted not a single person was referencing that case.

If you saw your neighbors house being broken into you have good reason to believe someone is where they do not belong.

Edit: just noticed that Trayvon Martin is in the tags for this thread, but to my knowledge we are talking about the Joe Horn case. Again, I am not interested in analyzing that case because I believe the data available is not reliable.

Ah, my bad.

 

[geeter]

IMO: Someone entering your house doesn't give you a license to kill them. That said, if someone entered your house and ended up dead I wouldn't run to JREF to start thread about it. Absent evidence to the contrary I would assume you reasonably feared for your life.

Had this situation been about someone who had entered the home of the shooter then this thread wouldn't even exist. So, by all means, have at it Hoss.

Yes it does. I have to assume someone breaking into my house (entering as you put it) is not there to deliver good will and presents.

 

[RandFan]

And this "killing someone for property" is still emotionalist rhetoric and a red herring.

No. If you want to insist on that point then we have nothing to discuss. I don't mind that you disagree with me. But to tell me that my position that informs my opinion isn't allowed is a non starter.

Human life is valuable, yes; but that value is not an absolute. Unless you're a pure pacifist, you've already accepted that human life does not have an absolute value.

I've no idea what a pure pacifist is. I hold that property is not greater than human life.

Someone who commits a crime has already announced to all and sundry that they have no intention of respecting human rights, that they do not have any interest in the social contract, and therefore they forfeit the right to be protected by any social contract. If you threaten others, you should expect others to react accordingly.

By this logic they have no right to due process. By this logic summary execution is justified.

And you still have not explained how you can reliably and consistently determine whether a crime is strictly a property crime, and that the perpetrator does not have any sort of violent intent. Magic? Psychic power? Particularly when burglary and home-invasion robberies are very often precursor crimes; and a path of escalation to violent crimes such as rape and assault.

Reasonable person standard. Look, if you are not going to accept my definitions (legal ones BTW) then we have nothing further to discuss.

A person who violates another's home typically isn't going to become all apologetic and leave politely if he discovers someone at home. At best, he'll run away if he believes the person is capable of causing him harm in self-defense. I'm lucky that's what happened to me. I had the drop on him, he couldn't see me clearly, so he no way to know that I wasn't armed at the time, and he fled. Had I been clearly unarmed, I do not know if I would have been so lucky. Some of my neighbors have not been.

I understand this from a perspective of living in the war zone that you do. In most places it's reasonable to call for police and let them do their job.

Even if, as you constantly parrot, it's "just a property crime" and they have no violent intent, then I shouldn't be under any risk if I attempt to apprehend them.

That would be to escalate the situation. In your war zone of a neighborhood it might be called for though.

I currently live in a neighborhood where most people think like you do; and would not lift a finger to help their neighbors. Consequently, there is a lot of crime, violent and otherwise. I wish I could afford to move.

I await your evidence that armed citizens confronting thieves significantly reduces crime. I'm skeptical. Is your opinion based on empirical facts or your gut feeling?

source "Right now states and laws vary quite widely on how far they extend self-defense, and there is not a whole lot of indication either way about how successful those laws are at reducing crime, or whether expanding the doctrine makes a community safer or has an impact on particular criminal actions," Burns said. "There is a real lack of empirical evidence."

 

[sgtbaker]

Anyone breaking into my house would be shot.
Except, that I never lock my doors. (Never did in England, and I've not seen a reason to do so here).
Second point: I don't own a firearm. But no villains would know that. (Don't tell them).
Thirdly; I have two large pitbulls. Anyone coming into my house would be thoroughly licked.V.

I'll remember that when I am lonely.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I'll remember that when I am lonely.

"Police say the dead woman had no breaking and entering tools, but was carrying a pack of bacon."

 

[sgtbaker]

"police say the dead woman had no breaking and entering tools, but was carrying a pack of bacon peanutbutter."

fify

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

fify

Appeal to authority?

 

[GeeMack]

I understand this from a perspective of living in the war zone that you do. In most places it's reasonable to call for police and let them do their job.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention. Their job is to come around after a crime has been committed, look for evidence, interview the victims and witnesses, and write reports. Calling the police and letting them do their job has virtually nothing to do with stopping or preventing crimes.

 

[RandFan]

Anyone breaking into my house would be shot.
Except, that I never lock my doors. (Never did in England, and I've not seen a reason to do so here).
Second point: I don't own a firearm. But no villains would know that. (Don't tell them).
Thirdly; I have two large pitbulls. Anyone coming into my house would be thoroughly licked.

V.

I'll remember that when I am lonely.

"Police say the dead woman had no breaking and entering tools, but was carrying a pack of bacon."

Good times.

 

[tsig]

I wouldn't bother shooting breaking into a neighbor's house even if I thought I could get away with it. You break into my house while I am there, and you are probably going to die though.

I'm constantly amazed at how much deadly force people are willing to deal out over the internet.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I'm constantly amazed at how much deadly force people are willing to deal out over the internet.

Your comment doesn't make sense.

 

[tsig]

No, they are unfamiliar with the attitude of just letting criminals steal their property. It's a strange attitude to them.

You'd rather die than lose your HDTV?

Everyone is assuming that only the bad guys die when the bullets fly.

 

[fuelair]

I'm constantly amazed at how much deadly force people are willing to deal out over the internet.

I am sitting in our computer room which looks straight down the hallway to the only two entry doors to our house. At hand (well, due to space next my foot) is a Taurus .357, six shot, all the bullets Black Talons (picked up the day they went off the market), truly at hand are two folders with the tension spring locks and large blades well sharpened. and six feet away is a Crawford Survival staff in the spear mode. This is not the only armed room in my house - where my wife is right now has the ParaOrd. LDA .45 with the mag in it topped (and the chambered round matching ) Black Talons. There is a second, more viciously set up Crawford staff there and a real, normal spear. Wife isn't as good as me with the devices, but she is a match for the kind of mother assaulting illegitimate slime eaters that might choose to do a house assault in this area. I do not actually expect this to happen (thus no shotgun mentioned or present. If I actually start worrying I will get a couple of 12's) but........

If my house is assaulted, I'll post a clipping of the body count for you. I suspect others of we "internet warriors" can quite accurately say the same.

 

[RandFan]

I am sitting in our computer room which looks straight down the hallway to the only two entry doors to our house. At hand (well, due to space next my foot) is a Taurus .357, six shot, all the bullets Black Talons (picked up the day they went off the market), truly at hand are two folders with the tension spring locks and large blades well sharpened. and six feet away is a Crawford Survival staff in the spear mode. This is not the only armed room in my house - where my wife is right now has the ParaOrd. LDA .45 with the mag in it topped (and the chambered round matching ) Black Talons. There is a second, more viciously set up Crawford staff there and a real, normal spear. Wife isn't as good as me with the devices, but she is a match for the kind of mother assaulting illegitimate slime eaters that might choose to do a house assault in this area. I do not actually expect this to happen (thus no shotgun mentioned or present. If I actually start worrying I will get a couple of 12's) but........

If my house is assaulted, I'll post a clipping of the body count for you. I suspect others of we "internet warriors" can quite accurately say the same.

Isn't it human nature to assume that we will always beat the bad guys? How often do professionals who are trained and have experience die?

Now, don't get me wrong. I'd feel more than safe at your house. And if the Zombie apocalypse happens don't be surprised to see me at your door. I don't have any guns but I make one hell of an artichoke heart and spinach dip. So, I've got that.

ETA: I need to send you a picture of me just in case. Don't shoot me bro.

 

[tsig]

I am sitting in our computer room which looks straight down the hallway to the only two entry doors to our house. At hand (well, due to space next my foot) is a Taurus .357, six shot, all the bullets Black Talons (picked up the day they went off the market), truly at hand are two folders with the tension spring locks and large blades well sharpened. and six feet away is a Crawford Survival staff in the spear mode. This is not the only armed room in my house - where my wife is right now has the ParaOrd. LDA .45 with the mag in it topped (and the chambered round matching ) Black Talons. There is a second, more viciously set up Crawford staff there and a real, normal spear. Wife isn't as good as me with the devices, but she is a match for the kind of mother assaulting illegitimate slime eaters that might choose to do a house assault in this area. I do not actually expect this to happen (thus no shotgun mentioned or present. If I actually start worrying I will get a couple of 12's) but........

If my house is assaulted, I'll post a clipping of the body count for you. I suspect others of we "internet warriors" can quite accurately say the same.

Cowering in fear is no way to live a life son.

 

[tsig]

Your comment doesn't make sense.

Maybe Keyboard Kommando might ring a bell.

 

[fuelair]

You'd rather die than lose your HDTV?

Everyone is assuming that only the bad guys die when the bullets fly.

You come out when you hear the noise, you have your weapon, the bad guy fires, misses and you shoot him/her OR you see the bad guy, turn and run yelling "Call the cops!!", the bad guy shoots at you several shots and you get hit OR you come out with your weapon, see the bad guy and blow him away OR. In all of these scenarios, the bad guy has a weapon - if he does not or makes no move towards one I don't shoot but if he has one to hand I take no chances. Shooting someone is a hassle, I would really prefer not to have to do it, BUT I want the bad guys to leave me and my chosen others alone. If they can't honor that perfectly simple request I have no concern at all for them.
In a large number of these meetings, nobody gets hit. People tend to tunnel vision and experience an apparent slowing of time in these situations (based on reports by police, soldiers , civilians and (I suspect but could not attribute specifically) criminals.

 

[fuelair]

Isn't it human nature to assume that we will always beat the bad guys? How often do professionals who are trained and have experience die?

Now, don't get me wrong. I'd feel more than safe at your house. And if the Zombie apocalypse happens don't be surprised to see me at your door. I don't have any guns but I make one hell of an artichoke heart and spinach dip. So, I've got that.

ETA: I need to send you a picture of me just in case. Don't shoot me bro.

Most of the bad guys who do burglary and home assault have very limited weapons training (and, if they hold the pistol sideways or the knife so it is visible, they have none). I had such in the military and have had a variety since.
I long ago accepted two facts: 1) I can be killed and even someone completely unskilled could hit me with their car or a random shot and 2) there are ways to minimize that possibility that do not bind me to a hermit-like existence and allow me to have a perfectly fun and happy life. Knowledge and weapons are two of those things/ways.

And, you would certainly be welcome at my house!! I do not expect anyone to agree with me on everything!!!

 

[Resume]

Again, what's the problem with staying out of homes that are not your own? What's the problem with abstaining from the acquisition of property that you do not own or have not earned? Why must lawful owners of said property abstain from protecting it? Why should the fruits of my labor be acquiesced without demur?

 

[The Dark Lord]

Maybe Keyboard Kommando might ring a bell.

I got what you were trying to say in the first place. The way you wrote just didn't make any sense because I wouldn't be dishing out the deadly force over the Internet, I would do it by shooting the scumbag.

And really, millions of people in the US own firearms for self defense, and presumably all of them at least believe they are willing to use them for that purpose. So your belief that people stating on the Internet that they are willing and able to use deadly force means that they are "keyboard kommandos" is retarded.