Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

tsig said:
Cowering in fear is no way to live a life son.
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I may be missing your point here, but I am actually drinking tea (cold) and eating Newman's Own Ginger Cookies (tasty). I could have miseed it, but I do not remember ever cowering in fear - closest I come to that is hoping thae batch of chili I made will, once again, be a masterpiece - and suspecting (when I make Green chili) that Rik's would beat mine easily.

I admit though that I still have trouble with people not understanding the simple rule: be prepared. I am prepared for a house fire, I am prepared for a hurricane or tornado, I am prepared (thanks to Red Cross and my wife) for assisting/taking care of an accident victim while waiting for paramedics and I am prepared to make small level house repairs. So, why would I be idiot enough not to be prepared for the also possible home invasion/criminal entry? :confused::confused::confused:
 
Resume said:
Again, what's the problem with staying out of homes that are not your own? What's the problem with abstaining from the aquisition of property that you do not own or have not earned? Why must lawful owners of said property abstain from protecting it? Why should the fruits of my labor be acquiesced without demur?
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Who is it that is making these arguments?
 
RandFan said:
IMO: Someone entering your house doesn't give you a license to kill them. That said, if someone entered your house and ended up dead I wouldn't run to JREF to start thread about it. Absent evidence to the contrary I would assume you reasonably feared for your life. Had this situation been about someone who had entered the home of the shooter then this thread wouldn't even exist. So, by all means, have at it Hoss.
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Resume said:
Why are you in my house? Why do I even have to ask the question?

Don't enter my house uninvited and there are no questions.
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I cordially invite you to kill all the people who enter your house unlawfully, please, enjoy. My opinion is not binding on you and I'm not calling for changes in the law to keep you from killing all the bad guys who come into your house.
 
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Resume said:
In December of 1974 I was abducted at knifepoint in a quirky case of mistaken identity. Once the mistake was discovered, there was talk of how to dispose of my body. Had I a handgun, I would've shot these motherlovers until I tired of it. And in Illinois, in 1974 I would have probably faced at bare minimum a weapons charge.

My escape was quirky as well, dumb luck in fact, but I dream about the incident a few times a year; I really don't care about the rightious indignation some display over SYG or concealed carry or self-defense. If one abuses those statutes, incarcerate, but don't tell me I can't defend myself.
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Wow. Holy ****. Glad you made it out.

May I ask you if you carry a weapon with you since then?
 
luchog said:
The problem is that there is almost never any such thing from a practical standpoint. Unless you are making woo-ish claims to be able to read minds, you have no idea why that invader is in your house. He may be happy to run away as soon as he finds out there's someone home (as I was fortunately enough to have happen), or he may just as happily turn violent without provocation. The only safe assumption to make about anyone breaking into your home is that they intend to cause you harm.

As for someone breaking into a neighbor's home, do you know for sure that your neighbors aren't there? If you have absolute certain, then yes, it would be strictly a property crime. I can understand not wanting to do anything to stop the burglary; as that would likely entail risk of personal harm. However, how often can you be absolutely certain that there is no one in the house who may be at risk? As for calling the police, good luck. They have no obligation to help until after the crime has been committed; and can take their own sweet time showing up even then.

I would personally rather opt for defense of my neighbor, even at risk to myself, than sit by and watch.
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You quoted me and argued RandFan. I am uncertain as to how to respond. I do consider using deadly force to protect personal property to be justifiable under some circumstances. If I discover an intruder entering my home, under most circumstances I would shoot from a concealed position without warning.

However, I understand his points and his logic, and can find no fault with either his presentation nor his position. I simply disagree.with him at the moment.
 
RandFan said:
I cordially invite you to kill all the people who enter your house unlawfully, please, enjoy. My opinion is not binding on you and I'm not calling for changes in the law to keep you from killing all the bad guys who come into your house.
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You edited.

I don't really want to kill anyone that enters my house, invited or not. I simply do not care to completely comply with a home invader's wishes because frankly I don't feel they've earned my stuff.
 
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RandFan said:
I cordially invite you to kill all the people who enter your house unlawfully, please, enjoy. My opinion is not binding on you and I'm not calling for changes in the law to keep you from killing all the bad guys who come into your house.
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Okay, so you are just complaining.
 
sadhatter said:
There is one gaping flaw in the " No property is worth a life argument. " that folks who apparently hold the slow loris in high regard tend to use.

So, no property is worth a human life, so at this point we can both agree a human life has a definable value. And that judgements made take this value into account. Fair enough, no combination of things can equal one human life, and the goal here is to keep the scales balanced.

The problem comes in when you realize this means, if any two (or more) people want to kill you, by your own values, you should simply let them if you have the opportunity to save yourself by killing them. And the math works out very simply , one life lost is less than two lives lost, so morally, your decision would have to be to simply lie back and die regardless of the intent of the killers.
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That is a flaw. Another flaw of this human calculus argument is that certainly all construction and most other human activities are done with the understanding that they cause a fair number of deaths. Roofers, for instance, don't have much of a track record of surviving past 50, and people don't seem to care a lot about them.

However, a much larger flaw is that such people thing that criminals will just magically not kill you if you let them steal stuff. All criminals are members of the Better Business Bureau, it seems, and always operate according to lawful and honorable practices. None of them are ever drunk or on drugs, and they are certainly not trying to mug you or jack your car for the purpose of supporting their drug habits.
 
Resume said:
I live in Illinois. If I lived in your state my carry would be a S&W Bodyguard. I hate bulges.
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Yes, Illinois, the only state where we don't have all that indiscriminate shooting, people firing guns out of their car windows doing all that road rage killing, neighbors shooting each other because their dog crapped in the other fellow's yard. Heck we even do our damnedest to prohibit gun ownership altogether in Chicago. Now there's a place where we're free from the risk of violent crime. It's like the wild wild west in all the other 49 states. No concealed carry here in Illinois, and what a bastion of peace and tranquility it is.
 
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RandFan said:
I'm not calling for changes in the law to keep you from killing all the bad guys who come into your house.
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Let me add here that from my life experiences, my epidemiology if you will, I am not particularly interested in giving the "bad guys" any edge. I'm not looking to be a hero, or a vigilante; neither am I looking to be a statistic because I've been that already and it's not much fun.

And RandFan, I don't totally disagree with your premises here. I just don't know of any way to determine the intentions of an uninvited person in my home and my immediate reaction would be in defense of my family.
 
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GeeMack said:
Yes, Illinois, the only state where we don't have all that indiscriminate shooting, people firing guns out of their car windows doing all that road rage killing, neighbors shooting each other because their dog crapped in the other fellow's yard. Heck we even do our damnedest to prohibit gun ownership altogether in Chicago. Now there's a place where we're free from the risk of violent crime. It's like the wild wild west in all the other 49 states. No concealed carry here in Illinois, and what a bastion of peace and tranquility it is.
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At one point, no handguns permitted in Chicago, Morton Grove, Winnetka . . . and I don't remember where else. Yeah, that worked.
 
epepke said:
However, a much larger flaw is that such people thing that criminals will just magically not kill you if you let them steal stuff...
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Straw man. There are a number of issues we are discussing buy primarily this is a about leaving a place of safety to confront thieves.

But, since you speak with such authority. What are the relative risks? I know it's kind of rude to ask for evidence on skeptics forum but if we are going to make these kinds of claims ought we not to know what the facts are?
 
RandFan said:
IMO: the bleeding obvious is to not put property above human life. You kill someone and you harm everyone that person knows. You create a terrible void. It could be someone who is going through difficult times and driven to take drastic measures. When you kill that person you take away everything they are. It's permanent and no hope for his or her redemption.

Someone stills your car or boat you can replace it. Yes, it violates you. It hurts. Perhaps it scars you for life but you live. You can be with loved ones and they can be with you.

I don't understand why life is so cheap for some people. That's just my opinion. The way I see the world. I understand that people can be evil and do evil things. But I cannot justify killing someone for property.
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RandFan, I understand completely what you're saying, even though, IMHO, I disagree with it.

If someone is willing to break into my home, while my family and I are there, am I willing to bet my family's safety that their ONLY intent is to steal my Xbox? I personally, am not willing.

If I am inside, and I see someone stealing my car, am I going to shoot them dead? Nope. I am with you on that. My car has GPS tracking, and insurance. So, they can have it. I am on the phone with the cops, but if they get it started, they can drive it away. My family and I are safe inside.

If I am in the car, and they try to remove me from said vehicle, they better hope I have ****** aim. (I don't. )

But, I certainly understand your position, and have no problem with you taking that position.

Now, try to take my truck......that's another story.....:D
 
triforcharity said:
RandFan, I understand completely what you're saying, even though, IMHO, I disagree with it.

If someone is willing to break into my home, while my family and I are there, am I willing to bet my family's safety that their ONLY intent is to steal my Xbox? I personally, am not willing.

If I am inside, and I see someone stealing my car, am I going to shoot them dead? Nope. I am with you on that. My car has GPS tracking, and insurance. So, they can have it. I am on the phone with the cops, but if they get it started, they can drive it away. My family and I are safe inside.

If I am in the car, and they try to remove me from said vehicle, they better hope I have ****** aim. (I don't. )

But, I certainly understand your position, and have no problem with you taking that position.

Now, try to take my truck......that's another story.....:D
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Thanks. Good post. My position about someone entering a person's home is simply an opinion. I've not tried to disabuse anyone of their position on that.

If there is anyplace a person should be safe and secure it's their home.
 
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