[Split]Physics of collision and collapse - split from: Offer to the Truth Movement: L

[A W Smith]

Stundificated.

SIGnicated

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

SIGnicated

They stuff their feet in their mouths so much, it cuts off oxygen to their brains.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Why did you bring up the Empire State Building in comparison if you are not interested in a dead-on statement from an eyewitness expert on how the 1931 building differed from the WTC for the purposes of fire effects on steel?

If you are not willing to pay attention and take the time to find the info, that's your problem. Don't bother us with it.

.
Doesn't the Empire State Building have to hold itself up?

Didn't they have to figure out how much steel to put where?

What kind of computers did they have to design it? This ain't rocket science!

Wikipedia says it was designed from the top down. Design a small part at the top. Figure out how much it weighs. Compute how much steel is necessary to hold that up. Design the next 3 to 5 levels down. Figure out how much that weighs. Add it to the total so far and design the next few levels. Do that all the way down and the amount of steel to put on every level is eventually figured out.

But tons of interconnected steel is still going to conduct so it is going to take TIME to heat enough to weaken even without fireproofing. So why are we supposed to believe the steel in the WTC could weaken in less than 2 hours even without fireproofing when we are not told how much steel was where? And there is the minor detail of the skyscraper in China that did not collapse even though the fire looked a LOT bigger and lasted longer.

psik

 

[A W Smith]

.
Doesn't the Empire State Building have to hold itself up?

Didn't they have to figure out how much steel to put where?

Wikipedia says it was designed from the top down. Design a small part at the top. Figure out how much it weighs. Compute how much steel is necessary to hold that up. Design the next 3 to 5 levels down. Figure out how much that weighs. Add it to the total so far and design the next few levels. Do that all the way down and the amount of steel to put on every level is eventually figured out.

But tons of interconnected steel is still going to conduct so it is going to take TIME to heat enough to weaken even without fireproofing. So why are we supposed to believe the steel in the WTC could weaken in less than 2 hours even without fireproofing when we are not told how much steel was where? And there is the minor detail of the skyscraper in China that did not collapse even though the fire looked a LOT bigger and lasted longer.

psik

Tell us how much concrete and steel was on the 74th floor of the Empire State building then, Since you are using it as your example and seem to think you know so much about it.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

And there is the minor detail of the skyscraper in China that did not collapse even though the fire looked a LOT bigger and lasted longer.
psik

Statements like this are why I consider the likes of AE911truth a bunch of morons. You seem affixed to details, perhaps it would do you some good to apply that to other arguments before you spout ignoramus comments:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=10388155&postcount=206

http://www.oma.eu/index.php?option=com_projects&view=portal&id=388&Itemid=10

For the record, if it's of any use to the author of this thread... when you hear of AE911truth this is one of my major criticisms of their work. I've yet to see them explain once how buildings like these are in any way similar to the the trade centers. Other factors determining whether or not the structural integrity was compromised were never detailed in any of their examples. And I can guarantee that if they had done those studies correctly they would not be comparing this universally to the WTC. jhdsvbfjhl-hacker... when you can explain what about this structure is similar to the design of the WTC, we'll talk... my intuition tells me by that comment you made that you have no idea...

 

[BigAl]

.
Doesn't the Empire State Building have to hold itself up?

Yup. And you can read why the ESB building and a WTC tower were completely different on one page here.

Building collapse - V Dunn
http://snurl.com/j54ud [books_google_com]​

Didn't they have to figure out how much steel to put where?

But tons of interconnected steel is still going to conduct so it is going to take TIME to heat enough to weaken even without fireproofing. So why are we supposed to believe the steel in the WTC could weaken in less than 2 hours even without fireproofing when we are not told how much steel was where?

Read the page in the book.

And there is the minor detail of the skyscraper in China that did not collapse even though the fire looked a LOT bigger and lasted longer.
psik

Read the book and understand whay WTC1 and 2 were unlike any other buildings before or since as far as tolerance for fire goes.

 

[Justin39640]

i read somewhere but i cant find the citation anywhere (thanks truthers for flooding the internet with inane babble when youre searching for relevant info thats been spammed almost entirely out of existence)
i read that the weight of paper in the towers rivaled the weight of the steel used in construction
plus the damper system in the top floors
plus any other objects that might have moved in the towers at impact to further absorb energy
your models dont reflect any of that

they dont reflect the construction

you know the buildings had sensors to monitor how much the building sways
thats how we knew how much it moved
plus we knew the weight of the planes and about at what speed they hit
take into effect the damper and some other variables and youll probably arrive at a good estimate

from this thread alone youve been asking this same "question" for over a year
why dont you take the blueprints and figure it out?

 

[psikeyhackr]

i read somewhere but i cant find the citation anywhere (thanks truthers for flooding the internet with inane babble when youre searching for relevant info thats been spammed almost entirely out of existence)
i read that the weight of paper in the towers rivaled the weight of the steel used in construction
plus the damper system in the top floors
plus any other objects that might have moved in the towers at impact to further absorb energy
your models dont reflect any of that

they dont reflect the construction

you know the buildings had sensors to monitor how much the building sways
thats how we knew how much it moved
plus we knew the weight of the planes and about at what speed they hit
take into effect the damper and some other variables and youll probably arrive at a good estimate

from this thread alone youve been asking this same "question" for over a year
why dont you take the blueprints and figure it out?

.
So you advertise the fact that you are talking BS.

They explain in the NCSTAR1 report that the analysis of the oscillation is based on moire patterns produced in a digital camera by the movement of the perimeter columns.

The WTC towers recoiled as well from the airplane impact as shown in a well-done analysis by NIST using Moire interference patterns generated between the WTC tower vertical columns and the grid of pixels in the CCD of the camera --- the oscillatory motion of the building was measured to such a high accuracy that the different modes of oscillation could be discerned.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/7753?page=1

Provide a link to information about these supposed sway sensors?

The NIST report says sensors were used to test the buildings in the 90's but it did not say they were permanent installations. You are the first person I have encountered in 3 years to claim there were sensors to monitor motion at the time of impact. ROFL Can you come up with supporting evidence.

How do the blue prints specify the differences in the exterior wall panels? Was it too difficult for the NIST to state the quantities and weights? Why do you let them get away with 3 years, 10,000 pages and $20,000,000 but jump on me because of what you claim is spam on the internet.

Then you can't come up with the correct source for the information on the oscillation. It just sounds like you are proud of being ignorant and expect everyone else to be content with it.

If you dislike the spam so much why bring this up for me to make a response?

psik

 

[dtugg]

 

[Reactor drone]

.
...They also say the original design of the skyscrapers called for 14 types of exterior wall panels but that the manufacturer requested that 2 types be upgraded and was given permission so only 12 were used on the towers. That gives the impression that they did significant historical research and understood the design of the buildings..

So how is it that they produced a 10,000 page report that does not tell us the quantities and weights of of each of the 12 types of wall panels? There were more 2,500 of them on each building.

So we get lots of unimportant details but find nothing about what really matters.

Believing ignorant experts is an even stranger stance.

You are of course free to try to track down the information. If you understand the physics of skyscrapers and have been paying attention to the issue for any period of time why didn't you know to look for the information already?

psik

The weight of the panels is obviously important to you but in 7 years you haven't taken the time to figure out the weights from the publicly available information concerning the cross sections and heights of the various columns in the towers?

Why should NIST have to present the same information in every conceivable combination just because you're too lazy to lift a calculator for 10 minutes?

 

[sylvan8798]

Originally Posted by psikeyhackr
.
Now this is the key.

Turning science into a religion and the scientists into a priesthood that doesn't have to make everything as clear as possible.

They don't have to specify the steel and concrete. The dumb laymen aren't supposed to be able to comprehend the conservation of momentum. The pseudo-scientists that hide information are more important than science.

Just BELIEVE the BS that is dished out. LOL >>>


I just know you'll explain this in scientific terms so we can all grasp why this is so important to you...

 

[psikeyhackr]

The weight of the panels is obviously important to you but in 7 years you haven't taken the time to figure out the weights from the publicly available information concerning the cross sections and heights of the various columns in the towers?

Why should NIST have to present the same information in every conceivable combination just because you're too lazy to lift a calculator for 10 minutes?

.
The NIST says one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That is obviously far more important to them than the total weight of the 76 perimeter panels that had to move about 14 inches when the plane impacted. ROFL

You JREFers are really good at demonstrating how well you comprehend physics. LOL

You just believe in accepting what AUTHORITY tells you or doesn't tell you.

This was built to demonstrate the effect of changing the weight distribution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

I expect you to be forever.

psik

 

[dtugg]

Does the fact that you're probably the only person in the world that cares about the exact distribution of steel and concrete in the WTC towers tell you something? Well, your condition would probably have you convince yourself that you're the only person in the world that understands physics before it would allow you to concede that the reason nobody else cares is because it doesn't matter.

 

[FineWine]

.
The NIST says one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That is obviously far more important to them than the total weight of the 76 perimeter panels that had to move about 14 inches when the plane impacted. ROFL

You JREFers are really good at demonstrating how well you comprehend physics. LOL

You just believe in accepting what AUTHORITY tells you or doesn't tell you.

This was built to demonstrate the effect of changing the weight distribution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

I expect you to be forever.

psik

People with mediocre minds riding obsessions are really boring. To accept your premise that you understand matters beyond the grasp of every physicist in the world, you are obliged to explain how you learned what no one else knows.

 

[Justin39640]

People with mediocre minds riding obsessions are really boring. To accept your premise that you understand matters beyond the grasp of every physicist in the world, you are obliged to explain how you learned what no one else knows.

his obsession is over 2 years old? its amazing how you can tell just how obsessed a person is by going through old posts
broken record isnt the word
more like an infinite loop error

but based on what he is trying to figure out (the distribution and mass at each level) his idea is pretty simplistic when you think about it
based on the physics he wants to prove
you would have to figure out EVERYTHING in the building and their exact locations
such as:
the 49000 tons of HVAC equipment
the paint on the walls (250000 cans a year they used)
the amount of drywall
desks
computers
PAPER
more paper
the eighty-seven tons of food that was delivered to the building each day
12,000 miles of electrical cable
19,600 miles of telephone cable (im not sure if this was voice and data or voice alone)
where every single elevator was when it stopped moving
etc
etc
etc

so whats your endgame psik?
even if someone actually sat down gave you the numbers was this the line you planned to take next?

its impossible to tell the exact weight distribution
a whole bunch of people, who are a lot smarter than you and i, sat down and made a highly educated guess based on ALL available info

it wasnt one guy who sat down for 5 minutes and just spat out a number
please i hope youre not that naive

 

[sylvan8798]

Don't forget the thousands of people who were in the building at the time, many of them now deceased.

psik seems to want to come up with some exact number and location of weight when only a rough estimate will ever be available and is really more than enough anyways.

In the absence of more refined data, take some rough estimates, look at the extremum possibilities, come up with a pretty good idea. If he knew what he was talking about, he could have done this already in the time he has spent repeating the same lines on every internet board from here to kalamazoo.

 

[Justin39640]

Don't forget the thousands of people who were in the building at the time, many of them now deceased.

psik seems to want to come up with some exact number and location of weight when only a rough estimate will ever be available and is really more than enough anyways.

In the absence of more refined data, take some rough estimates, look at the extremum possibilities, come up with a pretty good idea. If he knew what he was talking about, he could have done this already in the time he has spent repeating the same lines on every internet board from here to kalamazoo.

dont forget building his models
when i first read his "post" i looked at his youtubes
b4 i clicked them i expected to see something impressive

i shoulda knew what to expect lol

i meant to include people
say if there was 15,000 in the building and the average weight was 150lbs a person
thats 2,250,000 lbs of people in one building

 

[GlennB]

its impossible to tell the exact weight distribution

Which is exactly why he's demanding to know it. It's the equivalent of a kid having a bedtime tantrum and shouting "I'll brush my teeth when you buy me a pony!"

 

[Reactor drone]

.
The NIST says one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That is obviously far more important to them than the total weight of the 76 perimeter panels that had to move about 14 inches when the plane impacted. ROFL

Perhaps they thought the kinetic energy of the planes might be important.

.
You JREFers are really good at demonstrating how well you comprehend physics. LOL

You just believe in accepting what AUTHORITY tells you or doesn't tell you.

If you don't believe what authorities tell you why do you want NIST to tell you the weight of the panels?You know the cross sectional areas,the heights,the number of columns and the density of steel why not work it out and have a nice clean result,free from the percieved bias of any authority?

.
This was built to demonstrate the effect of changing the weight distribution.

(youtube video here)

I expect you to be forever.

psik

Well I'm certainly confused as to why you think that is relevant to the collapse,it isn't even relevant to the impacts.You might want to read up on the difference between an elastic and an inelastic collision.

 

[twinstead]

I demand to know how many insects were in the towers, and what their total weight was! Until then, I declare the collapses an inside job!