Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st

[Alt+F4]

What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated.

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted.

Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I would appreciate if you would follow the progression below and respond. The original question was asking what the person wants from society.

Ah, a progression that included a remark from you - as it happens, I only just unignored you to see what you'd said in response to my post, but in the expectation of popping you back on ignore from weary experience of you dragging everything down to some sort of wrestling match.

Just before I do, I'll point out that Tubba was apparantly responding to my post, rather than the 'progression' you mention. I don't know if you'd appreciate him answering any of the questions I raised - I know I would but he hasn't...

 

[jiggeryqua]

The problem is that unless you state clearly what you want, you can just acrobat your way around anything I say and reply with "No, that's not really what I meant!" and make up more irrelevant analogies about black people and wheelchairs.

What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society. I don't know what it is, since you haven't said so yet. Using the term "Aspergians" appears to be a warning flag.

A warning flag of what? I use the term Aspergians because I don't care to say that I 'have' Asperger's, anymore than homosexuals 'have' homosexuality. I certainly don't care to be told I 'suffer' from Aspergers.

Let's try and pick apart the earlier remark:
"What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society."

Is that finally a response to the first of my questions arising from an earlier post? Does 'what I mean' answer 'what do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'? You think that my pointing out that civil rights have grown to encompass citizens that aren't white, male, straight and able-bodied is indicative of (and 'very clearly' indicative of) that I somehow think that I'm far more than reasonably entitled to something from society?

Perhaps you haven't really been reading my posts? It took me a while to grasp that you appeared to think I wanted a law that made people like other people (even though that's a very silly idea). I'd grant that would probably qualify as 'an excessive entitlement'...if anyone was asking for it. It is, however, very clearly indicative of your ignorance of Aspergers that you might believe that it was being called for. (Although I will note that many places now make hate speech illegal and many societies make certain words or attitudes socially unacceptable).

I note also that you asked why I'd assumed you were able-bodied when I referred to 'white, male, straight, able-bodied' people. You really shouldn't take these things so personally, but since you did I see that you didn't argue 'white, male and straight'. Do you understand how much you get from society? Do you really appreciate how much of what you take for granted has been hard-won (or is still to be won) by the rest of society? I'm sorry you feel the analogies were irrelevant. I'm not sure I can help you see what you're missing. There's none so blind...

As it happens, I think you're also making the mistake of imagining Rose & I are the same person. I haven't come here 'wanting' something (and certainly not some excessive entitlement), although I do still want some answers to all those questions you avoided. I'm not holding my breath...

In the meanwhile, since you asked, among the things I'd want would be a solution to my biggest problem: whatever the skills required for a job, what is likely to be tested is the ability to be interviewed (which I'm assured usually means 'demonstrating your similarity to the interviewer', something that Aspergians rarely achieve).

Practical solutions to that problem include the interview structure that was used for a job I excelled at some years back. All interviewees were asked the same questions and, crucially, got 15 mins with the written questions before the interview, so I could compose my answers. I aced the interview. I excelled at the work. I got no 'excessive entitlement' - unless you think I'm entitled to less than proper people, which does appear to be the case.

 

[Puppycow]

So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

 

[Pauliesonne]

I have aspergers but I wouldn't want personally to be cured because I'd worry about experiencing a lot of new feelings and activities.

But, I still would like a cure to be found for those who can be given the cure before they're born.

 

[CelticRose]

In what ways does that not happen now?

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

 

[CelticRose]

And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?

Children, yes. Adults, not so much. The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.

 

[CelticRose]

I can understand ramps etc for the wheelchair bound.
That is a failing of society to provide access to public places for people in wheel chairs.

As for respect and acceptance, well my parents taught me that those reactions from society, are earned and not just given, regardless of race, creed, belief or condition.

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

Now I understand that Aspies, at least those who are affected more severely, have problems with social interaction.
People should, if they are aware of the persons condition, react with compassion and understanding.

However, in many cases, society is not aware of this on first encountering the Aspie. So I think that a little understanding from both sides is in order.

The only way we can garner that understanding is through dialogue and interaction.

QFT. Especially the bit about "from both sides".

Unfortunately, many neurotypicals (i.e. so-called "normal" people) seem to be unwilling to meet autistic people halfway. I can't begin to count the times I've asked people to explain something to me because I was having difficulty understanding it, and not only were they unwilling to explain it to me, but they seemed insulted or annoyed that I had even asked the question.

 

[CelticRose]

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

I'm sorry to hear that your nephew is so severely disabled that he cannot use a fork (that's sincere -- I'm not being sarcastic). However, are sure that's directly related to his autism? It sounds more like a comorbid, but I could be wrong.

You may want a cure, but does he? A question that commonly comes up on autistic forums is "If there were a cure, would you take it?" The majority respond "no", and that includes people who are completely nonverbal irl. There are people that do want a cure, and that's fine. The point is that it should be the autistic person's choice, not anyone else's.

Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.

Here's a project doing genetic research on autism: http://www.autismgenome.org/index.html.

Now, genetic research is generally a good thing, but there's fear among the autistic community that it might be misused, particularly by parents-to-be who have been misinformed by the media. The following site, albeit biased and overly dramatic, illustrates how many on the spectrum feel about the subject. http://ventura33.com/clock/

 

[Uncayimmy]

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

Societies use acceptance and rejection to modify behavior. People who are different will be rejected. I'm not sure much can be done beyond tempering it to a degree, which is certainly a laudable goal. But the fact is that if someone for whatever reason (say) has trouble holding a conversation such as not knowing when it's their turn to talk on the phone, people are naturally not going to want to talk on the phone with that person.

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle. What you describe is something many people experience for a variety of reasons. Since you don't go around announcing that you have autism, then you are being treated differently because of your behavior rather than a label. If this is "who you are" then people are treating you according to their perceptions. I have a problem with people treating individuals based on expectations and stereotypes, but when it comes to actual behavior, that's another matter.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

 

[technoextreme]

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.

That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle.

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

In her case there is no label whatsoever. There is only behavior, and by her own description, people seem to treat her according to her behavior. She didn't say anything about society believing or not believing adults can have autism. I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

You can take up the myth status with these folks:
http://autism.about.com/od/whatisautism/tp/topmyths.htm

To my knowledge violence is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and the correlations such as they are don't exist outside of other psychological disorders. Do you have evidence to support your statements?

 

[Damien Evans]

"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

I hate that word.

 

[Damien Evans]

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

 

[dirtywick]

I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

Tantrums from adults can be dangerous and violent.

But either way, I work directly with several people with autism and one of them gets proper violent pretty easily if you don't know how to work with her. If it's autism specifically that causes that behavior, or contributes to it, is hard to say as most of the people I work with have other disorders as well.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

We have a friend whose child has ASD and we always remind our kids of this before they see him. It allows them to reset their gauge of what is rude and to understand why some of his actions would not be acceptable for them to mirror.

How else can we expect them to be patient with him when he does things that we would not allow them to do?

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

 

[jiggeryqua]

If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

 

[Skwinty]

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'..

True, however your example relies on cultural differences in determing the perception of rudeness. Once you know and understand the cultural difference, then a reasonable person will lose the perception that the Ugandans are rude.

The same applies to when I meet an Aspergian and I am not aware of this fact, sure I will think they are rude.

If however, I was aware of the Aspergian condition, then I would not think they are rude and adjust my perception accordingly.

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

True again, the person who I perceive to be rude is not me and does not have the same social forces and pressures that I do, but if I do not know that they are Aspergian, I will think they are rude and avoid them.
I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

 

[Pauliesonne]

I hate that word.

Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

 

[CelticRose]

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be would have been mental retardation instead of autism if you had been diagnosed as a child.

Fixed that for you.

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

Uh, no. There are likely about the same number of violent people among autistics as there are among neurotypicals. The misperception of autistic people as being violent is due to media bias and sensationalism. Whenever a crime is committed by an autistic person, the media make a big deal of it and focus on the criminal's autism as the "cause". Oftentimes, if a neurotypical had committed the same crime, the media wouldn't bother to cover it.