Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

dudalb said:
And you seem to have forgotten about the SNP taking a beating in the last UK elections.
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Hell of a funny beating that leaves the party with a very substantial overall majority of seats. This is a bit like saying, you won the league by ten points last year, this year you only won it by six points, what a terrible beating.
 
The Catalon people are so desperate for independence, freedom & soverignty that they want to leave Spain and immediately join the EU.

LOL!!!! Something stinks here.
 
dudalb said:
... And you seem to have forgotten about the SNP taking a beating in the last UK elections.
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They have 35 out of 59 seats, down from an astonishing and freakish 56 out of 59.

That's why people think unionists are stretching definitions.

OK, there's four parties which hold Scottish constituencies in Westminster:

one with four seats,
one with seven seats,
one with thirteen seats, and
one with thirty five seats.
The party that has taken a beating is ... wait for it ... the party with the thirty five seats. Of course. Aye, fine.
 
You don't demand independence only to seek to join a much LARGER federation that will strip much of your independence.

This story is just odd.
 
There's a world of difference between being part of an incorporating union where you are entirely subordinate to the "parent" state, which can strip you of whatever limited measure of autonomy it has seen fit to grant at any moment, and entering into a multi-national agreement to join an association of autonomous states. Every country in the world (except North Korea) forms international alliances. Are the existing 27 member countries of the EU "stripped of much of their independence"? That's the sort of crazy talk that led to the Brexit vote and look how that's turning out.
 
Hercules56 said:
The Catalon people are so desperate for independence, freedom & soverignty that they want to leave Spain and immediately join the EU.

LOL!!!! Something stinks here.
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Presumably they don't believe that membership of the EU is any infringement of their independence, freedom and sovereignty. There are other separatists in more Northern climes, who think the
Catalans are right about that.
 
applecorped said:
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
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FTFY. I don't think Lincoln's House Divided Speech is particularly on point either. First, there's no irreconcilable difference between Catalonia and the rest of Spain comparable to the issue of slavery. Second, Catalonia has about 16% of Spain's population; the slave states had about 37% of the US population (counting each slave as a full person), so to say that Spain is "divided against itself" is something of a stretch, IMO.

Further, Lincoln's point was not that he expected the Union to be dissolved; rather:

I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.​
 
Craig B said:
Presumably they don't believe that membership of the EU is any infringement of their independence, freedom and sovereignty. There are other separatists in more Northern climes, who think the
Catalans are right about that.
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Essentially - plus they can quit being drained for fundage for the rest of Spain!!! Not their fault the rest of Spain can't pay it's equal share to keep up the country and shouldn't be their job to do so.
 
fuelair said:
Essentially - plus they can quit being drained for fundage for the rest of Spain!!! Not their fault the rest of Spain can't pay it's equal share to keep up the country and shouldn't be their job to do so.
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Indeed - An independent London now makes sense...
 
Belgian thought said:
Indeed - An independent London now makes sense...
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Then it should be common for capital cities to seek to secede from the countries of which they are the political centres. But gosh, it's very uncommon. I wonder why that is the case.

Here's my theory. The people living and working in capital cities are smart enough to know that they owe the prosperity of their cities to the fact of their being political and economic centres. If London was no longer the home of the government would it remain as wealthy as it now is? Most people are intelligent enough to know that it would not. So they do everything they can to keep government there.

Secession is the very last thing that occurs to them. In fact, preventing provinces from seceding, not seceding themselves, is what makes most sense for them. And unsurprisingly that is what they tend to do.
 
Craig B said:
Then it should be common for capital cities to seek to secede from the countries of which they are the political centres. But gosh, it's very uncommon. I wonder why that is the case.

Here's my theory. The people living and working in capital cities are smart enough to know that they owe the prosperity of their cities to the fact of their being political and economic centres. If London was no longer the home of the government would it remain as wealthy as it now is? Most people are intelligent enough to know that it would not. So they do everything they can to keep government there.

Secession is the very last thing that occurs to them. In fact, preventing provinces from seceding, not seceding themselves, is what makes most sense for them. And unsurprisingly that is what they tend to do.
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Blah blah - indeed. Economics is not an argument for independence.

ETA: Or maybe it is? - I have oil, you don't.
I have water, you don't.
London pays for the rest of the country, and so on.
 
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Belgian thought said:
Blah blah - indeed. Economics is not an argument for independence.

ETA: Or maybe it is? - I have oil, you don't.
I have water, you don't.
London pays for the rest of the country, and so on.
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If regions are repressed economically, that might be an argument. Or if finite resources are grossly mismanaged by central government. But seceding from a country because you've become wealthy through being in the capital of that country would be the act of a lunatic.
 
dudalb said:
Hope you don't get indigestion from all those sour grapes over the failed Scottish Referendum.
And you seem to have forgotten about the SNP taking a beating in the last UK elections.
IMHO, a majority of the Scottish people are not yet convinced that that independence from Scotland is a good idea.
And, IMHO, that the independence movement has been taken over by one political ideology has something to do with that.
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I don't think you really understand what you are talking about either in Scotland or Catalonia.

The SNP won the GE in Scotland and a majority of Catalan voters supported independence in the referendum.
 
Belgian thought said:
Yes - I agree
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That's good, because your country may soon acquire a new resident. However, Puigdemont has assumed responsibilities which I think he is morally obliged to fulfil and defend in his homeland, be it at the risk of imprisonment.

He could establish a secret shadow government on the 1918-21 Irish model, and go on the run, hiding from the GC, and presiding over clandestine meetings of his cabinet.

That would be fine. But I don't think he should go into exile quite yet. If he and his government secure the allegiance of the majority of Catalans, who would then comply with its instructions, not those of Madrid, the success of the independence movement would be more assured.
 
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applecorped said:
1,700 companies having moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia to date.



It's over.
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Perhaps. We will see. Countries are not yet owned by companies, voters still have some say in democracies; and the obvious motive for the companies' transfer is to secure their legal HQs against Spanish reprisals. If Spain now starts an economic war against Catalonia using legal sanctions against enterprises with HQs there, that may rebound on the rest of the Spanish union.

This all depends on the commitment to separatism, and the degree of resolve, of the Catalans. If they support the local government against Madrid, using Gandhi style tactics, they may secure the Republic. If they don't, they certainly won't.
 
The best thing right now for Catalonia and Spain is to dial down rhetoric and focus on the fresh elections in December. After that if there is a clear mandate for change then a referendum conducted by some independent agency is in order, but the current posturing is achieving nothing.
 
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