Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Abooga]

The only thing these pro-independence parties have going for them is the behavior of Spanish police towards people trying to vote in the referendum. That was uncalled for and must be sanctioned to the fullest extent of the law.

Beyond that they're no better than Antonio Tejero and his gang of failures. They usurped power above and beyond what was granted to them by illegal and unconstitutional means. No democracy can tollerate that and expect to remain a democracy.

McHrozni

I´m not versed in law, but I seem to recall that is Spain the law is very little specific in regards to the extent in which the police can apply violence. It only says as much as "it will have to be proportional" or some such thing, when in other countries there are more precise laws that put some kind of limits to what the police can do, I guess limiting violent attacks to peaceful protesters etc. Perhaps somebody more knowledgable than me can explain it better or correct me.

The fact is that at the moment pro-Catalans are accusing the government of applying an unproportional amount of force, and the government says it was proportional... all matter of interpretation of the stupidly broad law, which solves nothing.

 

[Abooga]

It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.

Well, we still have a King, and Catholicism is is still alive and well, what do you expect from a society such as this? Many don´t have a concept of citizenship, they still think of the provinces as lands obtained by conquest and "property" of the kingdom. The pretension that a referendum could break the "unity of Spain" is unthinkable.

 

[McHrozni]

I´m not versed in law, but I seem to recall that is Spain the law is very little specific in regards to the extent in which the police can apply violence. It only says as much as "it will have to be proportional" or some such thing, when in other countries there are more precise laws that put some kind of limits to what the police can do, I guess limiting violent attacks to peaceful protesters etc. Perhaps somebody more knowledgable than me can explain it better or correct me.

The fact is that at the moment pro-Catalans are accusing the government of applying an unproportional amount of force, and the government says it was proportional... all matter of interpretation of the stupidly broad law, which solves nothing.

You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.

Of course much, perhaps most of the blame rests with Catalan authorities which pressed on with an illegal action that violated their own rules on many points. That does not mean the Spanish police can be let off easy.

This isn't some bleeding heart issue, it's an issue of credibility and resolving the question for a meaningful while. If Spain punishes those among their forces that, in the eyes of the public, made the referendum a much more violent affar than it necessary, it can afford to come down harshly on the putchists (I think the term is quite appropriate) in Catalan authorities without appearing hypocritical. If it punishes those in their own ranks first the putchists have no recourse and no moral high ground.

Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists. But that will just kick the can down the road for a couple of years until the next time someone thinks Catalonian independence can win him a safe retirement.

McHrozni

 

[Abooga]

You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.

They were illegally breaking the holy unity of Spain, it is claimed, the police issued enough warnings etc. So it is not viewed as disproportional by Spanish right-wingers.

Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists.
McHrozni

That´s exactly what they are doing. Looking at their track record, it is to be expected. When Franco died and we transitioned into this "sort of" Democracy, they didn´t make the necessary changes in the Police corps, army etc. so who can be surprised?

 

[Craig B]

They were illegally breaking the holy unity of Spain, it is claimed, the police issued enough warnings etc. So it is not viewed as disproportional by Spanish right-wingers.

That´s exactly what they are doing. Looking at their track record, it is to be expected. When Franco died and we transitioned into this "sort of" Democracy, they didn´t make the necessary changes in the Police corps, army etc. so who can be surprised?

Is this likely to restore Catalan support for union with Castile?

Catalan Police chief Josep Lluis Trapero is to be investigated for sedition by the National High Court in Madrid, El Español reported on Wednesday morning.

The newspaper said the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly, Jordi Sánchez, and Òmnium Cultural, Jordi Cuixart, will be investigated for the same crime.

El Confidencial reported all three men must appear before the judge in Madrid on Friday.​

 

[Dani]

Very good summary of the legal background of the issue.

What do you think is going to happen? I´m still amazed at all this crazyness. I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, what´s your take?

First things first: Firefox sucks.

Ok. I feel better now.

Yes, I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, but I would say that what the pro independence leaders are doing is worse. They've been ignoring at least half the population of Catalonia in their challenge to the Spanish laws and the constitution and now they're fueling disobedience.

Once you get to this point, there's no turning back. Or is there?

This is a poker game. I can't see the cards. The pro independence leaders must (should) be scared. They most likely have the losing hand. There are two options: UDI or lower the demands up to a point where there's something to discuss. With the first option, it will get ugly. You only expect to win sufficient support as it gets ugly and people have no other option than to chose sides. With the second one, they will be seen as traitors by many people who want independence and who really believe in this "process" (as you know, we call it "El Procés").

And what worries me most: nationalism. We are at a point that, no matter what we do, a lot of Catalans will hate Spain and a lot of people from the rest of Spain will hate Catalans for not wanting to be Spanish the way they want. Everything is becoming more and more binary. Congratulations for the victory of irrationality.

 

[Craig B]

You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.

Of course much, perhaps most of the blame rests with Catalan authorities which pressed on with an illegal action that violated their own rules on many points. That does not mean the Spanish police can be let off easy.

This isn't some bleeding heart issue, it's an issue of credibility and resolving the question for a meaningful while. If Spain punishes those among their forces that, in the eyes of the public, made the referendum a much more violent affar than it necessary, it can afford to come down harshly on the putchists (I think the term is quite appropriate) in Catalan authorities without appearing hypocritical. If it punishes those in their own ranks first the putchists have no recourse and no moral high ground.

Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists. But that will just kick the can down the road for a couple of years until the next time someone thinks Catalonian independence can win him a safe retirement.

McHrozni

Congratulations on abandoning your previous baloney deceit that this has anything to do with the wishes of the Catalan people. That was never in the least convincing. This holy Falangism you're now spouting is much more credible as an expression of your belief system.

 

[Abooga]

Is this likely to restore Catalan support for union with Castile?

Catalan Police chief Josep Lluis Trapero is to be investigated for sedition by the National High Court in Madrid, El Español reported on Wednesday morning.

The newspaper said the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly, Jordi Sánchez, and Òmnium Cultural, Jordi Cuixart, will be investigated for the same crime.

El Confidencial reported all three men must appear before the judge in Madrid on Friday.​

Well, what else can they do, if he supposedly disobeyed direct orders? Give him a medal?

 

[Abooga]

First things first: Firefox sucks.

Ok. I feel better now.

Yes, I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, but I would say that what the pro independence leaders are doing is worse. They've been ignoring at least half the population of Catalonia in their challenge to the Spanish laws and the constitution and now they're fueling disobedience.

Once you get to this point, there's no turning back. Or is there?

This is a poker game. I can't see the cards. The pro independence leaders must (should) be scared. They most likely have the losing hand. There are two options: UDI or lower the demands up to a point where there's something to discuss. With the first option, it will get ugly. You only expect to win sufficient support as it gets ugly and people have no other option than to chose sides. With the second one, they will be seen as traitors by many people who want independence and who really believe in this "process" (as you know, we call it "El Procés").

And what worries me most: nationalism. We are at a point that, no matter what we do, a lot of Catalans will hate Spain and a lot of people from the rest of Spain will hate Catalans for not wanting to be Spanish the way they want. Everything is becoming more and more binary. Congratulations for the victory of irrationality.

Completely agree. Nationalism is ugly, Catalan, Spanish, Basque... all of them. The only defence for independentists IMO can come from a challenge of the legitimacy of the Spanish state, which can be reasoned to some degree. Well, at least in the Basque Country the majority didn´t vote the Constitution, in Catalonia they did, so it´s harder for them to challenge it...

 

[Craig B]

Well, what else can they do, if he supposedly disobeyed direct orders? Give him a medal?

What "direct orders" did the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly disobey?

 

[Dani]

The worst is the social climate. Not only in Spain, but especially in Catalonia. Today:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/local/barcelona/20171003/431774024254/pelea-zona-alta-barcelona.html

Nothing serious, but unfortunately I expect much more, and worse, to come.

I'm really sad.

 

[McHrozni]

Congratulations on abandoning your previous baloney deceit that this has anything to do with the wishes of the Catalan people. That was never in the least convincing. This holy Falangism you're now spouting is much more credible as an expression of your belief system.

It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

McHrozni

If you want "all accounts" of the wishes of the people of Catalonia, what should you do? Hold a referendum of course. But you call that "putschism". We have disagreed about political definitions before. The Oxford Dictionary defines "putsch" as

A violent attempt to overthrow a government; a coup.​

The Catalan referendum was not "violent" and it was not an "attempt to overthrow a government" so it fails both elements of the definition.

 

[Abooga]

What "direct orders" did the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly disobey?

What chairman? You mentioned a disciplinary action against the Police Chief.

ETA: Ok I didn´t see the second bit about the chairman. I don´t have an opinion about that just yet..

 

[Hlafordlaes]

What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.

Who cares? Should we worry about the KKK protesting Civil Rights? Let's recall the facts here: a permanent majority, fresh off of forty long years of cultural repression, then another forty doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula (ahem, hello, Portugal), is claiming that it, as permanent majority, has eternal say over the affairs of an ethnic minority.

As for the vote results:

Grab a chunk of someone's land. By force. Kill, left and right, as you implement a fascist overthrow of democratic government. Enslave thousands after the war to erect a large cross under which to bury the slave labor bones and celebrate Castilian Catholicism. Actively push your own people to settle it. Resettle the bulk of new immigrant arrivals by busing them from the refugee boats to the center of Barcelona. Continue this and much other nonsense, for years, then say "the locals love me." Meanwhile, deny any and all attempts at historical reckoning, including disallowing finding and marking the mass graves.

A "democracy" not based on true universals, equitably shared and recognized, is a sham club for promoting ethnic privilege. Add some Opus Dei propaganda, sly and dirty, too. Spain today, learning as much as it can from the GOP, trailblazers in permanent fixes offering unfair access to power.

 

[Abooga]

Who cares? Should we worry about the KKK protesting Civil Rights? Let's recall the facts here: a permanent majority, fresh off of forty long years of cultural repression, then another forty doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula (ahem, hello, Portugal), is claiming that it, as permanent majority, has eternal say over the affairs of an ethnic minority.

As for the vote results:

Grab a chunk of someone's land. By force. Kill, left and right, as you implement a fascist overthrow of democratic government. Enslave thousands after the war to erect a large cross under which to bury the slave labor bones and celebrate Castilian Catholicism. Actively push your own people to settle it. Resettle the bulk of new immigrant arrivals by busing them from the refugee boats to the center of Barcelona. Continue this and much other nonsense, for years, then say "the locals love me." Meanwhile, deny any and all attempts at historical reckoning, including disallowing finding and marking the mass graves.

A "democracy" not based on true universals, equitably shared and recognized, is a sham club for promoting ethnic privilege. Add some Opus Dei propaganda, sly and dirty, too. Spain today, learning as much as it can from the GOP, trailblazers in permanent fixes offering unfair access to power.

Do you have any idea what you´re talking about? "doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula" Catalan and Basque are currently under positive discrimination in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even the prevalent idea of Franco´s ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.

I´m very critical of the Spanish monarchy and semi-fraudulent democracy, but you just spouted a lot of hyperbole with little basis on reality.

 

[Abooga]

It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

McHrozni

Around 30% have voted yes to independence. So calling it a coup is not such a stretch.

 

[ddt]

Around 30% have voted yes to independence. So calling it a coup is not such a stretch.

Actually, 41%:

It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.

Calling that a coup is a stretch. It indicates that there might be a majority in favour of independence. I hasten to add that I think that just a simple majority in favour of independence is a very small basis for that.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Do you have any idea what you´re talking about? "doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula" Catalan and Basque are currently under positive discrimination in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even the prevalent idea of Franco´s ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.

I´m very critical of the Spanish monarchy and semi-fraudulent democracy, but you just spouted a lot of hyperbole with little basis on reality.

Yes, I do have an idea; I live here. I am, for example, keenly aware of the spate of court cases over the last two decades seeking to reverse the gains in linguistic autonomy made in the 1980s. In essence, the strategy is to claim discrimination against those not from region, insisting they be taught in another language. "Sure, teach both" is the refrain. Then you look at the budget allocated. Oops!

I was also here when Franco was alive, and got slapped around plenty by these same paramilitary goons. Catalan not repressed under Franco? Please. Why do you think I got slapped around? (Fun, though. When they found out I was a foreigner, and couldn't hide me in some dungeon for kicks, they were always seriously disappointed.) In fact, there was one sole pastry shop in the entire city of Barcelona during the 1960s, apparently somehow protected, that allowed itself to use a small "Open | Closed" sign on the door in Catalan. People from far and wide came to catch a little peek. Meanwhile, we all took camping trips up into Montserrat mountain, where there was some leeway owing to the presence of the Catholic Church (in this case, liberal Catalan monks, working on the edge).

Oh, and the busing of immigrants from all around the country into Catalonia can be found in recent news reports.

Been there, done that.

 

[Craig B]

Even the prevalent idea of Franco´s ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.

Which part of this account of Franco's policy do you regard as mythical?