Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[mumblethrax]

Which sort of makes the referendum questionable as a reading of the will of the Cataloninan people?

That's the point of an electoral boycott, yes.

But people here are in full "Up The Revolution!" mode,so I should not expect balanced opinions.

No idea what you're talking about, sorry.

 

[ddt]

Which sort of makes the referendum questionable as a reading of the will of the Cataloninan people?

It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.

But people here are in full "Up The Revolution!" mode,so I should not expect balanced opinions.

I'm not sure what you mean. But the Spanish government certainly shot themselves in the foot with their heavy-handed approach. There's more than a few Catalonians who were against independence, or were on the fence, and now think: I don't want to be part of such a country.

Rajoy better heed the words that Gorbachev spoke to the GDR Politburo in Oktober 1989: "Dangers await only those who do not react to life."

 

[Andy_Ross]

Catalan referendum: Vote illegal - Spain's King Felipe

Spain's King Felipe VI has condemned organisers of Catalonia's independence referendum for having put themselves "outside the law".
In a TV address to the nation, he said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", and called for unity.

News just breaking Catalonia to declare independence in next 5 days.

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

 

[Darth Rotor]

How is this secession effort different from the efforts Bossi made to try and rally support for Northern Italy to secede from the rest (not successful, obviously) about 20 years ago? A core gripe that is similar appears to be the "we are shouldering the economic burden of the rest of you."

If the Catalonian independence declaration happens, do we get to watch Spanish Civil War, part dos? Part uno was not a pretty sight.

 

[dudalb]

It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.


I'm not sure what you mean. But the Spanish government certainly shot themselves in the foot with their heavy-handed approach. There's more than a few Catalonians who were against independence, or were on the fence, and now think: I don't want to be part of such a country.

Rajoy better heed the words that Gorbachev spoke to the GDR Politburo in Oktober 1989: "Dangers await only those who do not react to life."

I agree the Spanish Government shot itself in the foot with it's stupid handling of the referendum but I think that a poll like the referendum is a very shaky grounds for something as important as independence.

 

[dudalb]

Catalan referendum: Vote illegal - Spain's King Felipe

Spain's King Felipe VI has condemned organisers of Catalonia's independence referendum for having put themselves "outside the law".
In a TV address to the nation, he said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", and called for unity.

News just breaking Catalonia to declare independence in next 5 days.

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

How do you say "Our Lives, Our Fortunes, and Our Sacred Honor" in Catalan?

This escalates it. A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.

 

[dudalb]

How is this secession effort different from the efforts Bossi made to try and rally support for Northern Italy to secede from the rest (not successful, obviously) about 20 years ago? A core gripe that is similar appears to be the "we are shouldering the economic burden of the rest of you."

If the Catalonian independence declaration happens, do we get to watch Spanish Civil War, part dos? Part uno was not a pretty sight.

George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" should be required reading.

 

[ddt]

I agree the Spanish Government shot itself in the foot with it's stupid handling of the referendum but I think that a poll like the referendum is a very shaky grounds for something as important as independence.

Oh yes, as I said, it shows that at least 41% of the Catalan eligible voters favour independence. That's a large minority but not a majority.

I fear the Spanish government will only escalate it with more violence.

This escalates it.

Yes. Not a word of empathy for his Catalan subjects. Not a word about the horrible police abuse that was for all the world to see. He just reiterated Rajoy's party line.

A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.

But then, they got the referenda they desired in negotiation with the national government.

I note though a bit of backtracking. Before the referendum, Puidgemont said they would declare independence within 48 hours of the referendum. Those 48 hours are over. Now it's within five days from now.

 

[dudalb]

What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.

 

[Giz]

This escalates it. A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.

Yes, but neither the UK or Canadian governments would have behaved like the Castilians, sorry Spanish, just did.

 

[dudalb]

Yes, but neither the UK or Canadian governments would have behaved like the Castilians, sorry Spanish, just did.

Agreed, but still worried a UDI will just make matters worse.

 

[Dani]

The actions of the Spanish Government were deplorable, but I have a really hard time buying the 94% in favor of secession claims by the party involved. You only get that kind of majority in staged elections like you see in dictatorships. I think we are going to get all kinds of B.S. from both sided.

The referendum, not being agreed upon with the Spanish government nor viable in the current Spanish Constitution, is not legal. It was organized by the three independent parties: ERC, CiU (now PDeCAT), and CUP. Other parties from the Catalan parliament (PP, Ciutadans and PSC/PSOE) were clearly against the referendum, with the remaining party Catalunya Sí Que Es Pot initially against an unilateral referendum, but given the public outcry from the independence movement and their own internal divisions, they ultimately favored the referendum more than not although they did not take active part. Their partner Podemos is the only party nationwide that supports a referendum, within legal means.

Catalonia is an autonomous community. These are administrative divisions. It has its own "miniconstitution", the Statute, which allows the Catalan government (Generalitat) to pass their own laws to a certain degree (competencies have been a typical tug-of-war between central and autonomous governments, and not just in Catalonia). It takes a supermajority in the Catalan Parliament (I don't remember exactly, let's say two thirds) to reform the Statute, but "surprisingly" it took much less than that for the pro independence parties (which represent little more than half the seats with the help of radically anticapitalist party CUP) to pass the referendum law and the "transition" law (to an independent state, which was "legally" tied to the result of the referendum), thus bypassing the laws that legitimize the existence of the Catalan institutions in the first place and effectively surpassing their actual competencies. It was described by the opposition as a "coup to democracy". The opposition (which roughly represents half the population in Catalonia) never recognized this referendum. Some will hardly ever consider that possibility under any circumstance, legal or not (PP, Ciutadans), while others don't consider that possibility but a little softer about it and are proposing some middle ground (PSC/PSOE). None of these parties supported taking part in the referendum, and most of their voters didn't. That's why you get these numbers. We all knew that in Catalonia.

The Constitutional Court, of course, ruled that what the Catalan government did was inconstitutional. Not just the referendum, but the new laws that were passed ad hoc just a couple of months before. The Catalan leaders said, more or less, "Spanish institutions don't represent us anymore because Catalans want to decide, and they won't let us". Thus, began this period of open disobedience.

 

[Dani]

Sorry about the grammar. It won't let me edit it. I hope it was easy to comprehend.

 

[Strawberry]

A majority of the population at least in what was to become the Republic,was in favor of Home Rule.but only a small militant minority seemed in favor of a violent uprising.....until the aftermath of the Easter Rising.
You seem to be buying the more militant Irish Republican reading of Irish History...which is to be taken with a ton of salt.

No I'm not, I'm being rational and skeptical instead of accepting claims with no evidence. There's no evidence that the majority of the Irish people were in favour of Home Rule rather than independence, there's no evidence that they were in favour of a violent uprising either. Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell. The speed with which they became outraged by the executions suggests there was a lot of latent sympathy for at least the aims of the Easter Rising, and the speed with which the Home Rule party was dumped at the ballot box as soon as the franchise was extended beyond a narrow section of propertied men suggests the ordinary population wasn't all that keen on Home Rule either.

As for Catalonia, I think declaring UDI is the only way they ever will get independence so good luck to them.

 

[dudalb]

No I'm not, I'm being rational and skeptical instead of accepting claims with no evidence. There's no evidence that the majority of the Irish people were in favour of Home Rule rather than independence, there's no evidence that they were in favour of a violent uprising either. Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell. The speed with which they became outraged by the executions suggests there was a lot of latent sympathy for at least the aims of the Easter Rising, and the speed with which the Home Rule party was dumped at the ballot box as soon as the franchise was extended beyond a narrow section of propertied men suggests the ordinary population wasn't all that keen on Home Rule either.

As for Catalonia, I think declaring UDI is the only way they ever will get independence so good luck to them.

And you solid written evidence that a majority of the Irish population was in favor of the IRB before the rising is...........

Pretty clear you buy into a left wing view of history,and nothing will probably change that.

 

[Strawberry]

And you solid written evidence that a majority of the Irish population was in favor of the IRB before the rising is...........

Pretty clear you buy into a left wing view of history,and nothing will probably change that.

Explain to us all how you managed to read the words " Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell" and interpret that as a claim that the majority of Irish people were in favour of the IRB before the Rising.

The only one projecting modern politics onto history here is you, not me.

 

[Information Analyst]

The backlash against the British government in Ireland came with the execution of the leaders,which many advised them against;that it would turn a group of people that many who favored Home Rule considered to be bunch of extremists into matrys;it ,for the first time, caused a majority of the Irish people to think that armed resistence to the UK Government was justified.

On a point of detail, as Ireland was under martial law, the post-Rising courts martial and executions were down to the British military, and continued even in the face of mounting political pressure from London.

 

[Abooga]

Sorry about the grammar. It won't let me edit it. I hope it was easy to comprehend.

Very good summary of the legal background of the issue.

What do you think is going to happen? I´m still amazed at all this crazyness. I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, what´s your take?

 

[McHrozni]

Oh yes, as I said, it shows that at least 41% of the Catalan eligible voters favour independence. That's a large minority but not a majority.

I fear the Spanish government will only escalate it with more violence.

The only thing these pro-independence parties have going for them is the behavior of Spanish police towards people trying to vote in the referendum. That was uncalled for and must be sanctioned to the fullest extent of the law.

Beyond that they're no better than Antonio Tejero and his gang of failures. They usurped power above and beyond what was granted to them by illegal and unconstitutional means. No democracy can tollerate that and expect to remain a democracy.

McHrozni

 

[JJM 777]

What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.

It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.