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Sovereign Citizen Nonsense

I just remembered an episode of "Dirty Jobs" in which the host was interviewing a leather tanner. He mentioned that he had gotten various letters from the EPA and the NY State Dept. of Environmental Conservation about his operation, but asserted that they had no authority over him. I was working for NYSDEC at the time, so I found it amusing.
 
carlitos said:
Many sovereign citizens believe that their legal name is actually a “straw man,” a separate entity from their “flesh-and-blood” selves, she explained. Sovereign citizens often reference their “straw man” in all-caps, while using phony or just plain weird jargon to refer to what they see as their true selves.
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I don't know what makes them believe in the power of these magic words.
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There may well be a "strawman" for financial purposes but the "flesh-and-blood" human would be surety for the strawman if he signed any contracts.

It is essentially a bastardization of the way a business is treated. For financial purposes, a business is treated as an entity that is separate from its owners. However, the business owners own all the assets of the business, are liable for all of the debts of the business and are entitled to all of the profits of the business or have to pay all of the losses of the business out of their own pocket.

Where the "magic" comes in is that they believe that there is a way to break the nexus between themselves and their strawman that the courts will actually listen to.


DevilsAdvocate said:
But then the judge would just return the bill to him stamped "Accepted for Value". ;)
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If the judge did that then he would be on the hook for the bill.

This is another bastardization of the way financial documents work. A "bill of exchange" is essentially a letter addressed to somebody demanding money. If the addressee writes "accepted" then he is acknowledging the debt and the bill acquires the status of a promissory note.

There is supposed to be some magic way to sign a promissory note without being on the hook to pay it but it seems to apply mainly to banks who don't actually give you any money but just credit your bank account. (No explanation is given why this method works if you immediately make a cash withdrawal).
 
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Curious how this movement survives. They make very real claims about how the legal system works, and again and again there are examples of it failing. These people can harp about legal persons, gold fringed flags, and whatever, but eventually the State will prevail.

I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I get the feeling there's a mix of activist sovcits, who think their beliefs are what the law ought to be, and the extremely gullible ones who actually think it's going to work. The latter group I can't explain at all. How many times do the tactics have to fail in court before you realize the State won't accept your arguments?
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It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.
 
Horatius said:
It's even worse than that. They've often said things like, "They couldn't disprove my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!"

Losing is literally seen as winning by more than a few of these people.
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What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.

The nitty-gritty details of how the law is interpreted and how it is constructed can vary, but at the most basic level, it's about who has the most ability to exercise force to get their way, and that's the State.
 
The most obnoxious thing about the SC arguments is that even if they're valid, the courts still prevail.

Telling the bandit leader that he has no legitimate authority isn't going to stop him and his henchmen from emptying your pockets and sending you on your way with a beating.

A real Freeman on the Land would be tracking down a legit Admiralty Court, with the flag fringes and everything, so they could lodge a proper appeal and get justice over the kangaroo courts that seemingly run things.

Trying to get the kangaroo court itself to honor your appeal of its rulings is by far the stupidest part of the FOTL nonsense.
 
I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.
 
Resume said:
I think many of these sov claimants are merely scofflaws and common petty criminals looking for an easy way to get over.
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I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.
 
theprestige said:
I'd like to think that most petty criminals understand that telling the judge "you don't have power over me" is a pointless waste of time. But then I remember that these are the same folks who think telling the cop "these aren't my pants" is a good way to avoid arrest.
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I think wasting the cop's/judge's/legal system's time is part of the amusement. Also, there are sovcit videos in which their gibberish just exasperates the cop and they are told to move up, get a license, insurance, etc.
 
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My favorite sov/cit court failure.

Judge Tells Sovcit To Learn The Law Real Quick Or Get Represented
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
What do they even think the law is, on a fundamental level, I wonder. Because "a system of rules backed up by the threat of being taken to jail by guys with guns" sure sounds a lot like the law to me.
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For some of them, it's a religious thing. they think the "real law" was handed down by god, and then these fake courts screwed it all up.

For others, they think that the "Real Law" exists, but is only known the The Special People, like corporations and rich people, who know all the right words to say to get free money and to get out of jail. The Sov Cits are convinced they've sussed out what those magic words are, so they can do it too. Any failures are explained away as you not getting it quite right, thus invalidating the incantation.
 
One thing I don't quite get: if sovereign citizens don't accept the law of the land, then why do they use the currency of the land?

Michael
 
I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.
 
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gmanontario said:
I always wonder about the SovCits that use the Bible for a basis in law and continually talk about Gods Laws as the only law of the land. I've read the Old Testament and I do NOT want to live in that world. Where can I get a written list of Gods Laws aside from the 10 commandments?
Lately I've read its the King James version but nowhere would anyone tell me which version that is of the bible. Still no laws quoted, just verses that are taken out of context.
The new groups looks like another kick at the can or throwing crap against the wall hoping for some stickiness. Nothing new or interesting at all.
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I've always thought that sovcits are really anarcho-libertarians pretending what they believe is law.

Most anarcho-libertarians know full well that their politics are the way they think things ought to be, not the way they are.

The sovcit's self-delusion is the reason they are so decried.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
They are cosplayers who can't tell fiction from reality.
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Some SovCits have guns without orange caps on the barrels. Cosplayers are harmless, fun and serious about their schtick. To compare them with turdballs like SovCits is unfair.

I actually cant think of a group to compare them to without insulting a whole lotta people. :D
 
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