Some thoughts on the draft...

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: Manditory Service?

Try not to assume that every person put into jail is a bad person who in incapable of reform. Many of them are caught in bad positions in society and could use an oppurtunity to become more than just another ex-con who can't contribute to society. Prison is not always the best place to reform someone, and Army recruiters could bag a good number of worthwhile soldiers by cutting deals with judges.

Try not to assume every criminal is just a poor kid who had bad toilet training. The last thing the military needs is more social engineering and experimentation!

The days when a DI could smack a problem child around are long gone.

This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago. Kids started showing up in the fleet with these little credit card thingies. Some sort of stress indicator. They put their thumb on it and could tell by the color the little window turned how stressed out they were. One step up from a freaking mood ring. They were issued these in boot camp. If things got a little too rough, they could call a "training time out." I kid you not.

When we CPOs saw these things starting to show up in the fleet, we would ask the kid if we could look at it. Real nice like. Then we'd take it and toss it over the ship's rail. No training time out on inbound missiles, boys!

There were more than a few times I wished I could belt a subordinate who was being stupid or getting out of line. Perhaps that is where my infinite patience with some people on here comes from.

If you were to offer me, a CPO, the choice between a kid who has a clean record or a kid who was put in the military by a judge for stealing, I'll take the kid who has a clean record every time. I'd rather be short-handed (and I always was) than take on a problem child. I had enough of them as it was.

On ships, you will find that thieves are hated more than anyone else. You have to be able to trust your shipmates when you are living in such close quarters. If you can't, it has a devastating effect on morale.

Like I said, such a system would need more detail than just a blanket choice for every convict to take prison or jail.

Don't use the military as your garbage dump, please.

 

[ArmchairPhysicist]

This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago. Kids started showing up in the fleet with these little credit card thingies. Some sort of stress indicator.

I'd thought these things were just another legend. I've heard all about them, but have never met someone who actually saw one. It was always "The series that was coming in when we were graduating got them, but we didn't actually get them." with some kind of speculation about their actual use. Everybody knew about them, but none of us had actually seen one. Didn't stop us from making fun of the newjoins, though.


Anyway, it isn't a black and white concept. If we, as a society, believe that certain criminals can be released into society after a limited prison term, then we certainly must believe that those criminals are capable of adjusting to a crime-free life (speeding tickits aside) or at least a socially acceptable life. Given this, we should also be able to evaluate certain criminals as being able to adjust almost immediately, but still deserving of punishment. Persons like this, who show the ability to continue as a productive member of society, could be offered a choice between prison (on their permanant record) or the military.

Of course, the military would still have the choice to decline them.

Don't use the military as your garbage dump, please.

Recruiters would have the final say on whether the candidates would be allowed in, so ultimately it wouldn't be civilians forcing the military to take the dregs of society, it would be the military agreeing to take reformable recruits.

On ships, you will find that thieves are hated more than anyone else. You have to be able to trust your shipmates when you are living in such close quarters. If you can't, it has a devastating effect on morale.

Good point.

We had a saying.. "There ain't but one thief in the Corps... The rest of us are just trying to get our s#it back".

Anyway, it's just a consideration. I think could have potential, but I had different experiences than you did. What might work for grunts might be insane for sailors, and vice-versa.

 

[NullPointerException]

Alot of Misconceptions

From my experience military training is more likely you mess you up than reform you.

 

[Suddenly]

Re: Alot of Misconceptions

From my experience military training is more likely you mess you up than reform you.

I know what you mean. I had a good friend who went into the Navy because "he needed discipline." He was twice the mess when he got out.

I think it depends on the raw material. Another point against random or forced selection. Let the pros, not the politicians decide who will thrive.

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: Alot of Misconceptions

I think it depends on the raw material.

Garbage In, Garbage Out?

 

[Andonyx]

I'd thought these things were just another legend. I've heard all about them, but have never met someone who actually saw one. It was always "The series that was coming in when we were graduating got them, but we didn't actually get them." with some kind of speculation about their actual use. Everybody knew about them, but none of us had actually seen one. Didn't stop us from making fun of the newjoins, though.

Yes I assumed it was a legend as well...

http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm

 

[Suddenly]

Re: Re: Re: Alot of Misconceptions

Garbage In, Garbage Out?

Sort of. Maybe not that simple. Some garbage can be reformulated into something useful, other garbage just becomes more noxious.

Also I'm guessing there are those that are just fine and military training warps their minds, something like Private Pyle in "Full Metal Jacket."

I'd like to think they could develop some criteria for determining who is likely to respond favorably to the training, and who is likely to become a bigger problem for society. Mandatory service would make this sort of thing sticky at best, given the political pressures in place.

 

[Luke T.]

Yes I assumed it was a legend as well...

http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm

That was a card for explaining the training time out. That is not a myth. It was for real. There was also a period when plastic cards with little mushy squares on them were handed out. I saw them with my own eyes. These squares changed colors like mood rings.

The training time out is not a myth.

Perhaps the myth part is that a recruit could use it at any time and everybody had to stop what they were doing. The actual intention of a training time out was if the recruit felt his life was in jeopardy or if he was stressed out too much and wanted counseling. Because this was unheard of prior to that, it became a Navy-wide joke.

And even snopes confirms it was a short-lived thing. Once these kids started getting to the fleet and flashing their cards around, word got back to basic training to cut the crap real quick.

 

[Luke T.]

I'd thought these things were just another legend. I've heard all about them, but have never met someone who actually saw one. It was always "The series that was coming in when we were graduating got them, but we didn't actually get them." with some kind of speculation about their actual use. Everybody knew about them, but none of us had actually seen one. Didn't stop us from making fun of the newjoins, though.

I gather you were in the Marines. The Marines didn't have them, so that part was a legend.

Anyway, it isn't a black and white concept. If we, as a society, believe that certain criminals can be released into society after a limited prison term, then we certainly must believe that those criminals are capable of adjusting to a crime-free life (speeding tickits aside) or at least a socially acceptable life. Given this, we should also be able to evaluate certain criminals as being able to adjust almost immediately, but still deserving of punishment. Persons like this, who show the ability to continue as a productive member of society, could be offered a choice between prison (on their permanant record) or the military.

The job of the military is national defense. Not criminal rehabilitation. It is hard enough getting a suburban kid ship-shape without having to deal with a hood.

Of course, the military would still have the choice to decline them.

Recruiters would have the final say on whether the candidates would be allowed in, so ultimately it wouldn't be civilians forcing the military to take the dregs of society, it would be the military agreeing to take reformable recruits.

And they do decline them. A record search is done on every applicant. If you have a criminal record, forget about getting in.

But as I said earlier, if the military forces begin to get low on people, they will begin to allow waivers for certain offenses. A good indication to me of how bad things had gotten was when I was charged with investigating one particular sailor's crimes and during a records check I found he had a prior conviction for armed robbery before he came into the service. That told me more than anything else how much the drawdown of the 90s had gone too far. More often than not, a problem sailor had problems in his record from before his military service for which he had been waived.

We had a saying.. "There ain't but one thief in the Corps... The rest of us are just trying to get our s#it back".

Anyway, it's just a consideration. I think could have potential, but I had different experiences than you did. What might work for grunts might be insane for sailors, and vice-versa.

I hate thieves. Nothing worse than a shipboard thief. Your men can't go to the shower without locking all their stuff up first until you catch him. Whenever we had a thief, I would clear my desk and make it my number one priority to catch him above everything else.

Never saw a Commanding Officer not immediately discharge a thief from the Navy.