Some thoughts on the draft...

[peptoabysmal]

I believe it was drug addled ex-bomber crews who founded the Hells Angels after WWII, for example.

I think the members of the 303rd would be upset to hear this trash being repeated again.

Another Urban Legend

The Hells Angels were born in an era where there were servicemen who had come home and had difficulty adjusting to normal life. Motorcycles were cheap and offered an escape from the mundane. Eventually, some of the groups turned into gangs, Hells Angels were not the first. How you can hold this anomaly out as an example of a strong connection between war and crime is beyond my understanding.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

As for gays in the military, I have not made it a secret that I am against it. There are privacy issues that come into play. I am sure that a company of women wouldn't want a male living, sleeping and showering with them 24 hours a day. Why should hetero men have to live with a gay male? And why would a gay man (or woman, for that matter) want to put him/herself through that kind of torture? I mean, if I was living with 200 women in close quarters on a ship for six months, and showering with them, I'd lose my ever lovin' mind!

I thought no-one was 'gay' when they were out to sea? Only if they kept 'it' up when they got back to shore?

 

[NullPointerException]

yeahhh....

Until they allow soldiers the same freedoms as citizens im against a draft. I love our army/navy/airforce/marine officers and soldiers but the higher ups and processes would have to bend over backwards with changes before I would go through that mess again. They still use archaic and degrading training procedures for our soldiers so the skilled people who didn't want to be there would just say %$#@ America and go to Canada where they would get payed more.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Honest question: If there were a draft, would an openly gay person be excluded? I know about "don't ask, don't tell" But what about someone that is well known and gay? Say the guys from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy? Could they be drafted?

Another question I just thought of...would a draft include both men and women?

Thanks and sorry if this detracts from the thread.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I guess I'm one of those "Please don't, our military works so well now that we got the whiners and losers out and the only people in it want to be in it" military people.

I don't even see why anyone is even considering a draft. We have enough troops for the current situation. If a war breaks out with China or something, then maybe a draft.

Even some of the people who volunteered to be in the military are whining right now. They thought they would just collect an extra paycheck and some other benefits each month. They didn't expect to actually have to earn it. Oops.

Our troops are stretched pretty thin. They are away from home longer than usual, and that really sucks. But I don't think it has reached the point that we need a draft.

Re-enlistment rates should tell the real story of whether or not things are as bad as the media would like us to believe.

As for gays in the military, I have not made it a secret that I am against it. There are privacy issues that come into play. I am sure that a company of women wouldn't want a male living, sleeping and showering with them 24 hours a day. Why should hetero men have to live with a gay male? And why would a gay man (or woman, for that matter) want to put him/herself through that kind of torture? I mean, if I was living with 200 women in close quarters on a ship for six months, and showering with them, I'd lose my ever lovin' mind!

It was a rumor around the Navy that when Bill Clinton visited an aircraft carrier and saw what the actual berthing accomodations were like, he began to back off on his insistence of allowing gays in the military. Don't know if that is true or not.

Bah! Couldn't let it rest.

There are at least two problems with this position.

First of all, the way you talk about gays in the military as a what-if scenario hides the fact that there are already gays in the military. They just don't come out and say it, because they don't want to lose their job for picking the wrong sexual orientation. In otherwords, there are already gay males sleeping and showering with the hets, 24 hours a day, and coping with the torture of living with 200 eligible bachelors for six months.

Second, assuming that the military does have some fool-proof way of telling who's gay and who isn't (and if they do, they should market it. Plenty of gay bachelors would kill for one of those.), what's normal about the set-up for naval crew anyway? Six months without seeing a woman. Only being able to talk about them or look at pictures of them. Yet they don't go out of their mind? Is it that much of an adjustment for gay people to go without for six months?

 

[JAR]

Maybe if these kids had to serve we wouldn't have all this crime, drugs, rap music, baggy clothes and that other stuff that bothers me because I'm old, cranky and bitter and just don't understand the kids these days.

If the U.S. government reinstated the draft, it would have to spend a lot more money on the military.

 

[JAR]

Plus I was drafted and it taught me some discipline.

That may be true with you, but I was forced to be in the Boy Scouts by my father and I'm the laziest and most irresponsible person I know.

 

[JAR]

They woouldnt use the draft until afte the election. Its political suicide. In fact thats whatteh demos should harp on. Vote Bush and little Jonny might end up on the front line.

That sounds like a good idea for the democrats. If the republican candidate said he was going to reinstate the draft and the democratic one said he would ban drafts altogether, my vote would be for the democratic one.

 

[jj]

I guess I'm one of those "Please don't, our military works so well now that we got the whiners and losers out and the only people in it want to be in it" military people.


Indeed. The armed forces seem to work astonishingly well at present, why break a good thing!?!?!?


I don't even see why anyone is even considering a draft. We have enough troops for the current situation. If a war breaks out with China or something, then maybe a draft.


If war breaks out with China? No! Please!


Even some of the people who volunteered to be in the military are whining right now. They thought they would just collect an extra paycheck and some other benefits each month. They didn't expect to actually have to earn it. Oops.


Well I find it somewhat astonishing that people who JOINED the army voluntarily are suprised that they have a tin hat and a gun. Um, what did they think the army was!?!?!?


Our troops are stretched pretty thin. They are away from home longer than usual, and that really sucks. But I don't think it has reached the point that we need a draft.


I know quite a few people who were mustered out durning the 1990's who are still of the age, and still recall a lot of the training. If they hadn't been mustered out because of cost-cutting, we'd have a bigger army, and a willing, trained one.

I have no idea if they'd go back, but it would appear to be a pool of good soldiers.


Re-enlistment rates should tell the real story of whether or not things are as bad as the media would like us to believe.


In a nutshell.


As for gays in the military, I have not made it a secret that I am against it. There are privacy issues that come into play. I am sure that a company of women wouldn't want a male living, sleeping and showering with them 24 hours a day. Why should hetero men have to live with a gay male? And why would a gay man (or woman, for that matter) want to put him/herself through that kind of torture? I mean, if I was living with 200 women in close quarters on a ship for six months, and showering with them, I'd lose my ever lovin' mind!


One difference, Luke, you can't tell the difference from the outside, and if the guy keeps it to himself (I don't mean "don't ask, don't tell, I mean he just doesn't, err, proselytize) what's the problem? No idea why, but until I started being places with an obvious female companion, I got hit on by gays fairly often, and you know, I never "defected", just wasn't interested.


It was a rumor around the Navy that when Bill Clinton visited an aircraft carrier and saw what the actual berthing accomodations were like, he began to back off on his insistence of allowing gays in the military. Don't know if that is true or not.

That might scare people off more than gays in the military, eh?

At least it wasn't a Los Angeles with extra crew compliment and full food/supplies for an extended trip, eh?

 

[jj]

Re: Re: Manditory Service?

So you think forcing people to join the military would be dangerous, but it would be okay to put criminals in the military?


Unh. Yah. Last kind of person I want to train how to use a gun effectively is the criminal element.

No thanks.


Yeah. I wonder.

Neither do I.

 

[Suddenly]

Re: Re: Some thoughts on the draft...

That may be true with you, but I was forced to be in the Boy Scouts by my father and I'm the laziest and most irresponsible person I know.

Ummm....

Read it again. I was speaking form the point of view of the "draft supporter."

I personally was never drafted. It was a literary device, as was the other quote of mine you responded to. You aren't responding to me, you are responding to the composite "draft supporter" I created out of thin air.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Tmy]

Re: Manditory Service?

Something to consider is that the government actually does have a better program than manditory service; the National Guard.

What the military already does is pays college students for service. You can go to school for free, and all it takes is one weekend a month and two weeks for the summer. You really can't get a better deal than that, but guess what? Not every student does it!. There are hundreds of thousands of students out there who have been approached with the National Guard education package and have turned it down! Think about it, four years of free school, and all you have to do is show up one weekend a month and pretend to be a soldier.

People would rather work part time all month, scrape by on living expenses, run themselves ragged all month long balancing work with school, go into debt to keep their tuition paid, and spend years after graduation working to pay their student loans back!

.

Dont forget, theres always that chance of war. Like now. Guys who thought it was sweet deal to join the Natl Guard probably didnt think the risk was high that theyd end up spending 2 years being sniped at in the desert.

 

[Luke T.]

Bah! Couldn't let it rest.

There are at least two problems with this position.

First of all, the way you talk about gays in the military as a what-if scenario hides the fact that there are already gays in the military. They just don't come out and say it, because they don't want to lose their job for picking the wrong sexual orientation. In otherwords, there are already gay males sleeping and showering with the hets, 24 hours a day, and coping with the torture of living with 200 eligible bachelors for six months.

I am aware of that. And on every deployment, a couple of them are caught going at it in a storeroom or in their bunks. ANd they have to immediately be placed in protective custody to prevent them from being beaten to death.

That might sound incredibly homophobic, but imagine if a man passed himself off as a woman and lived with 200 women for a while and then was found out. You don't think those women would want to tear him to little shreds?

Second, assuming that the military does have some fool-proof way of telling who's gay and who isn't (and if they do, they should market it. Plenty of gay bachelors would kill for one of those.),

You haven't heard about the AN/HOMO-1(V)3 gaydar?

what's normal about the set-up for naval crew anyway? Six months without seeing a woman. Only being able to talk about them or look at pictures of them. Yet they don't go out of their mind? Is it that much of an adjustment for gay people to go without for six months?

Being deprived of women for six months is light years away from actually living and showering with them for six months without being about to touch or even stare.

Imagine being a gay male showering with 200 other guys and restraining yourself from looking and getting aroused...

 

[Doubt]

Draft only as a last resort.

The military does not exist to provide a means of social adaptation for those who were not raised properly. However, I do sometimes refer to the army as the place that I grew up. Most of that had to do with learning to take responsibility for the actions of others.

Also draftees are not retained long enough to get a good return on investment in their training. Most Vietnam era vets were drafted for two years. Many who were sent to Vietnam were discharged in less than two years. This was fine when you had a relatively low technology force where independent action was not considered a good thing. Now the military has large numbers of technical personnel who require at least a year just to train up for their jobs.

Also modern warfare calls for lower troop concentrations on the battlefield. The end result is that you have lower ranking people making more important decisions. I would not want some conscript with little experience leading a fire team when I could have a sergeant with four years experience leading that same team. More draftees means fewer career soldiers.

Another problem with the draft is that it would push those who are technically orientated away from the army. Get drafted and you could get stuck in the infantry. Join the air force and you may end up living in an air conditioned dorm and get your choice of technical training schools.

I have no problem with the don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Gender orientation should not be an issue. Conduct is an issue. In the civilian world, co-workers should not be involved in any sort of hanky-panky when on company property or on company time. In the military, the living conditions make things more complicated. But if someone can keep it to themselves, then it is their own business. Beyond that, I see no perfect solution.

I do think the military needs to take a closer look at relations between genders. Within the military, I don’t think it is very professional to have intimate relationships with people you work with everyday. How to deal with such an issue is just as difficult as dealing with don’t ask, don’t tell. Then again, I was only in all male units.

 

[specious_reasons]

Re: Re: Manditory Service?

So you think forcing people to join the military would be dangerous, but it would be okay to put criminals in the military?

Yeah, that's what I want. A thief on my ship. Sure.

edited to add: I wonder why they stopped that practice...

Yeah. I wonder.

Have they stopped the practice? I was listening to the This American Life where they spend some time on one of the large ships. It's been quite a while since I've heard it, but IIRC, one of the personnel they interview was offered (by a judge) the choice to go to jail or serve in the military.

That would not be a formal program, mind you.

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: Re: Manditory Service?

Have they stopped the practice? I was listening to the This American Life where they spend some time on one of the large ships. It's been quite a while since I've heard it, but IIRC, one of the personnel they interview was offered (by a judge) the choice to go to jail or serve in the military.

That would not be a formal program, mind you.

I hardly think it's a coincidence that every time tropps are shipped out from Ft. Bragg the crime rate in Fayetteville drops, only to rise again when the troops come home...

 

[specious_reasons]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Manditory Service?

I hardly think it's a coincidence that every time tropps are shipped out from Ft. Bragg the crime rate in Fayetteville drops, only to rise again when the troops come home...

I'm thinking the odds are good that LukeT did, in fact, serve with thieves and other criminals.

I'm not trying to disparage the military here. It just seems that some judges do use the military as a tool for social engineering.

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: Manditory Service?

Have they stopped the practice? I was listening to the This American Life where they spend some time on one of the large ships. It's been quite a while since I've heard it, but IIRC, one of the personnel they interview was offered (by a judge) the choice to go to jail or serve in the military.

That would not be a formal program, mind you.

If a potential enlistee has a criminal background, he most likely will not be accepted into service by the recruiter these days. It depends on the severity of the crime. If a judge offers jail or military service to a criminal, he would either have to ensure that the conviction is not on the criminal's record or have an arrangement with the recruiter.

Recruiters can get waivers for certain background problems. Again, it depends on the severity of the "problem" and the desperation of the recruiter.

After the "peace dividend" drawdown in the early 90s, the Navy found itself a little shorthanded. So recruitment requirements were slackened. Next thing I knew, I was getting kids with some very bad backgrounds. One memorable sailor had an armed robbery conviction in his record!!! Was it any wonder he came to my attention as a disciplinary problem?

 

[Furious]

I'd support a wartime draft for obvious reasons.

What bothers me is the half-assed declarations we've had since WWII requiring a peace time draft. Grow a pair and get Congress to declare it.

I know we have this "War on Terror", but I don't think a draft is needed to win it.

EDIT: It might even be challengeable in court:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html

 

[ArmchairPhysicist]

Re: Re: Manditory Service?

So you think forcing people to join the military would be dangerous, but it would be okay to put criminals in the military?

Yeah, that's what I want. A thief on my ship. Sure.

edited to add: I wonder why they stopped that practice...

Yeah. I wonder.

Try not to assume that every person put into jail is a bad person who in incapable of reform. Many of them are caught in bad positions in society and could use an oppurtunity to become more than just another ex-con who can't contribute to society. Prison is not always the best place to reform someone, and Army recruiters could bag a good number of worthwhile soldiers by cutting deals with judges.

Like I said, such a system would need more detail than just a blanket choice for every convict to take prison or jail.

Other things to consider for drafting and manditory enlistment is where the money comes from to support such an increase in the military population and who will be filling the gaps in the civilian workforce while the draftees are away on tour. I think the economy would have some quite interesting times.