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Ed Solving Missing-Person Cases / Anti-Abduction Tips

AmyStrange said:
I agree. You're absolutely correct and thank you.

This has also happened in many serial killer and child molestation cases. Some innocent folks have even been convicted and were on death row for years before being exonerated, and like you said, some still live under a shroud of suspicion for that very reason.

There's one case that haunts me to this day. I can't remember his name, but he was executed for killing his kids using arson, and that was because LE jumped to the conclusion that he was guilty because of the fire pattern, and also because they thought he was a satanist, even though dozens of arson experts (from all over the country) said they were wrong about the fire pattern being a Satanic symbol. His wife even helped to get him convicted.

They even used the fact that he had a Led Zepplin poster to prove he was a satanist.

That's totally different from someone actively working to stop anyone and everyone from publicizing their sister's disappearance. If one wants to criticize, fine, but please start with the Wikipedia page that suggested the idea. I'm merely informing folks of the facts and not accusing anyone of anything.

If you've ever worked with a lot of missing persons' families, you'd know the sister's behavior was very, very odd to say the least, especially since someone very close to the LE agency that was involved in the case told me that they'd never be found because of the people who were involved.

TBH, I don't think the sister had anything to do with it, but it's still very, very odd behavior, and THAT IS ALL I AM POINTING OUT.


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This is another thing that kind of bugs me about missing/murder investigations. Interpreting how people react to immediate trauma:

-I know that people grieve in different ways, but...

-Invoking your attorney right doesn't make you guilty, but...

-Don't agree to a pseudoscience polygraph? But...
 
PitPat said:
This is another thing that kind of bugs me about missing/murder investigations. Interpreting how people react to immediate trauma:

-I know that people grieve in different ways, but...

-Invoking your attorney right doesn't make you guilty, but...

-Don't agree to a pseudoscience polygraph? But...
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Once again, I agree, but let me ask you this, PitPat, what would you do if your sister disappeared and there was evidence she was buried under a building? Would you fight to have them check it out, or would you fight everyone and anyone to keep it swept under the rug?

The GPR report suggest there's something under the Parking Garage, and the excuse LE is making is lame at best.

It's just like those in LE that dismissed the arson experts because it would've made them look bad for possibly executing an innocent man.


ETA: Also, please remember, cases HAVE BEEN SOLVED by folks who did their own investigations with less suspicion than I have. I've also had personal contact with the sister and LE in that case, and it ALL just smells to high heaven.

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My sister and only sibling has been out of my life for over 20 years. Thanks opiates! I hope she's well.

Digging up a parking garage costs a lot of money. PD's have a budget. I guess it would depend on how reliable the source is.
 
PitPat said:
My sister and only sibling has been out of my life for over 20 years. Thanks opiates! I hope she's well.

Digging up a parking garage costs a lot of money. PD's have a budget. I guess it would depend on how reliable the source is.
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I think the GPR readings showing three anomalies is pretty darn reliable, and I can understand the cost excuse, but that doesn't explain why her sister is fighting it too. It's almost as if someone is forcing her to act that way. Like I said, I've been in personal contact with the sister and LE working the case, and it all smells to high heaven.

ETA: All someone would have to do is casually suggest to her (in a non-threatening way) that she could easily disappear just like her sister.
 
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AmyStrange said:
I think the GPR readings showing three anomalies is pretty darn reliable, and I can understand the cost excuse, but that doesn't explain why her sister is fighting it too. It's almost as if someone is forcing her to act that way. Like I said, I've been in personal contact with the sister and LE working the case, and it all smells to high heaven.
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It may be and from my understanding it's a pretty good tool.

But they're not body-identifying machines. If it pings on something that may be body-shaped, is it worth the costs for heavy machinery not to mention the structural engineering costs. Maybe just start with a cadaver dog.

Not saying I agree with it, just looking at the reality.
 
PitPat said:
It may be and from my understanding it's a pretty good tool.

But they're not body-identifying machines. If it pings on something that may be body-shaped, is it worth the costs for heavy machinery not to mention the structural engineering costs. Maybe just start with a cadaver dog.

Not saying I agree with it, just looking at the reality.
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They might be buried too deep for a cadaver dog to smell out, especially if they're buried under cement, and I can understand the cost explanation, but that doesn't explain why the sister is fighting it too. It's almost like someone is forcing her to act that way.

All someone would have to do is casually suggest to her (in a non-threatening way of course) that she could easily disappear just like her sister.

Like I keep saying, I've been in personal contact with the sister and also with LE working the case, and it all smells to high heaven.

ETA: I've just googled it, and cadaver dogs can smell a body that is roughly no more than 15 feet underground, but that's not including if it's under cement too.


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Which one are you talking about? Devil's always in the detail.

Cadaver dogs are really good at sniffing out decomposing flesh even if underground for awhile.

It may smell to high heaven, but it sounds like a case of "Quit calling, we have no new leads."

ETA: Or if they did, probably not gonna tell you about it.
 
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PitPat said:
Which one are you talking about? Devil's always in the detail.

Cadaver dogs are really good at sniffing out decomposing flesh even if underground for awhile.

It may smell to high heaven, but it sounds like a case of "Quit calling, we have no new leads."
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Cadaver dogs can smell a body that is roughly no more than 15 feet underground, but that's not including if it's under cement too.

No, it's not a "quit calling, we have no new leads," situation. I have a friend in the area who also investigated the case, and he was also threatened. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.


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Way back in 2006, we had this awesome thread called "Psychics and Missing People":

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56148

It was so good it's been put in the forum's "Forum Spotlight" section.

The creator of the thread, Kelly, ran a website listing all the ways psychics try and fail to solve missing persons cases, and how much psychics' actions hurt the families.

Kelly's son was a missing person, and still is.

The thread was a great example of skepticism and critical thinking. It seemed to me, AmyStrange, that your thread should at least have a mention of and link to it.
 
AmyStrange said:
Cadaver dogs can smell a body that is roughly no more than 15 feet underground, but that's not including if it's under cement too.

No, it's not a "quit calling, we have no new leads," situation. I have a friend in the area who also investigated the case, and he was also threatened. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.


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Not much imagination to be had. Sounds like at least like witness tampering, which is a whole different ball of wax.
 
PitPat said:
Not much imagination to be had. Sounds like at least like witness tampering, which is a whole different ball of wax.
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You have no idea, and that's why I have to keep quiet about all the other facts I have except for what's already publicly out there.


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Orphia Nay said:
Way back in 2006, we had this awesome thread called "Psychics and Missing People":

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56148

It was so good it's been put in the forum's "Forum Spotlight" section.

The creator of the thread, Kelly, ran a website listing all the ways psychics try and fail to solve missing persons cases, and how much psychics' actions hurt the families.

Kelly's son was a missing person, and still is.

The thread was a great example of skepticism and critical thinking. It seemed to me, AmyStrange, that your thread should at least have a mention of and link to it.
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I've seen some docs where LE have went to psychics. That kind of blows me away.

I can understand talking to them in the off chance they know something about it, without mind rays.

There was a case where somebody went missing and there was a big reward, and two girls stepped up to solve it in psychic fashion, telling the investigator where he was.

Turned out they were in on it, and didn't do a good job of getting their stories staight beforehand.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Way back in 2006, we had this awesome thread called "Psychics and Missing People":

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56148

It was so good it's been put in the forum's "Forum Spotlight" section.

The creator of the thread, Kelly, ran a website listing all the ways psychics try and fail to solve missing persons cases, and how much psychics' actions hurt the families.

Kelly's son was a missing person, and still is.

The thread was a great example of skepticism and critical thinking. It seemed to me, AmyStrange, that your thread should at least have a mention of and link to it.
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Good suggestion:


https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56148


I've always advocated that skeptics should not only be skeptical of other folk's belief and proofs, but also their own.

But, this thread is mostly about real world solutions to finding missing persons like what Todd Matthews did (he's considered one of the first internet sleuths), Chris Clark, the Doe Network, and Namus.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11593868/amateur-detectives-dleuths-solve-crimes-cold-cases-home/

https://www.doenetwork.org/

https://www.namus.gov/


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Orphia Nay said:
The thread was a great example of skepticism and critical thinking. It seemed to me, AmyStrange, that your thread should at least have a mention of and link to it.
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GPR results are nothing like what a psychic does, but let me ask you the same question I asked PitPat:

What would you do if your sister disappeared and there was evidence she was buried under a building? Would you fight to have them check it out, or would you fight everyone and anyone to keep it swept under the rug?

The GPR report suggest there's something under the Parking Garage, and the excuse LE is making is lame at best.

It's just like those in LE that dismissed the arson experts because it would've made them look bad for possibly executing an innocent man:

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14424715#post14424715

Also, please remember, cases HAVE BEEN SOLVED by folks who did their own investigations with less suspicion than I have. I've also had personal contact with the sister and LE in that case, and it ALL just smells to high heaven.


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I'm also working to have discussions on how to avoid being abducted (especially children) and becoming a missing person cold case, but currently I'm not allowed to discuss that w/o having my post being deleted.


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AmyStrange said:
GPR results are nothing like what a psychic does, but let me ask you the same question I asked PitPat:

What would you do if your sister disappeared and there was evidence she was buried under a building? Would you fight to have them check it out, or would you fight everyone and anyone to keep it swept under the rug?

The GPR report suggest there's something under the Parking Garage, and the excuse LE is making is lame at best.

It's just like those in LE that dismissed the arson experts because it would've made them look bad for possibly executing an innocent man:

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14424715#post14424715

Also, please remember, cases HAVE BEEN SOLVED by folks who did their own investigations with less suspicion than I have. I've also had personal contact with the sister and LE in that case, and it ALL just smells to high heaven.


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And I'll say the same thing I said before. PDs are hesitant to dig up a parking garage based on GPR abnormal ping unless there's a credible source.

The missing person you're talking about is already out there in the media somewhere, and I'm sure detectives are (hopefully) following those leads. Don't expect them to share details with you. Probably not even to family, lest there's a chance they think one might be involved.
 
PitPat said:
And I'll say the same thing I said before. PDs are hesitant to dig up a parking garage based on GPR abnormal ping unless there's a credible source.

The missing person you're talking about is already out there in the media somewhere, and I'm sure detectives are (hopefully) following those leads. Don't expect them to share details with you. Probably not even to family, lest there's a chance they think one might be involved.
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I'm NOT talking about sharing leads or details like I already explained, but believe what you want.

Also, it's a good thing Todd Matthews, Chris Clark, the Doe Network volunteers didn't or doesn't follow your advice, or those folks in the Netflix Docuseries, "Don't **** with Cats: Hunting an Internet Killer" didn't follow it either:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11593868/amateur-detectives-dleuths-solve-crimes-cold-cases-home/

https://www.doenetwork.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_******_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer

Because the above link doesn't work, use this one instead:

https://w.wiki/_rX6b


And, "A biology-class project teaches high school students about the real-life application of DNA testing in wrongful-conviction cases.":

https://www.edutopia.org/innocence-project-dna-testing


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AmyStrange said:
I'm NOT talking about sharing leads or details like I already explained, but believe what you want.

Also, it's a good thing Todd Matthews, Chris Clark, the Doe Network volunteers didn't or doesn't follow your advice, or those folks in the Netflix Documentary, "Don't **** with Cats: Hunting an Internet Killer" didn't follow it either:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11593868/amateur-detectives-dleuths-solve-crimes-cold-cases-home/

https://www.doenetwork.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_******_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer


And, "A biology-class project teaches high school students about the real-life application of DNA testing in wrongful-conviction cases.":

https://www.edutopia.org/innocence-project-dna-testing


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I loved Don't **** With Cats. Yes, armchair internet sleuths have led to positive outcomes - not disputing that.

The whole DNA thing is well known, mostly if not all cross-contamination arguments that the jury believes if it goes that far. It's happened, as I'm sure you know.

But back to the point. With strapped resources, when should LE start looking for a missing person report? The obvious answer is immediately.

"My teenage son is past his 11:00 curfew and it's nearly 2:00 and he's not returning my texts!" And then there's the red flags which I think I mentioned a few times.

With an adult, without a red flag, it's pretty much "They're an adult, they can do what they want."
 
PitPat said:
I loved Don't **** With Cats. Yes, armchair internet sleuths have led to positive outcomes - not disputing that.

The whole DNA thing is well known, mostly if not all cross-contamination arguments that the jury believes if it goes that far. It's happened, as I'm sure you know.

But back to the point. With strapped resources, when should LE start looking for a missing person report? The obvious answer is immediately.

"My teenage son is past his 11:00 curfew and it's nearly 2:00 and he's not returning my texts!" And then there's the red flags which I think I mentioned a few times.

With an adult, without a red flag, it's pretty much "They're an adult, they can do what they want."
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I agree, it's a tough call with teens and adults unless there are obvious signs of foul play.

The work I've done with the Doe Network involved folks who've been missing for decades. What they do mostly is match up cold cases with unidentified bodies.

As of last year, the stats are that there are still more than 40,000 unidentified bodies (UBs) in this country, and as of December 31, 2019, the NCIC had nearly 87,500 active missing person records dating back to 1975.*

There's a good chance that most of the UBs could be matched up with a specific missing person, but that's not as easy to do as you would think. I wrote a whole post on how the Doe Network does it here:

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14176758#post14176758



*That works out to an average of 3 persons permanently going missing every month in every state since 1975, or more than 1,900 missing persons per year are never found.

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