So you're an atheist. Ok, what next?

[bokonon]

What's funny here is that, by Plumjam's lights, when a theist looks inward and questions his conscience to determine (for example) that slavery is wrong, even though it is condoned by the Bible, he is presumed to be tapping in to "objective" morality.

When an atheist looks inward and questions his conscience to determine that slavery is wrong, he's just making it up as he goes along, and is apt to do something crazy or antisocial.

These guys like to use God as some kind of ventriloquist's dummy, claiming that it is his will that determines right and wrong, when in fact, just like the atheists, it is their own empathy and socialization that provides their true moral compass.

They never seem to catch on to the fact that they often do the right thing IN SPITE of the Bible, just like atheists.

Then DOC comes along, and rationalizes "slavery is wrong" as the logical corollary of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," but can't seem to make the same association when it comes to homosexual couples. God may not be the prettiest ventriloquist's dummy, but he makes up for it in versatility.

 

[schlitt]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?
Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?
Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

Well, it's up to you. What next?
Preferably positive.

Who defines what is "positive"?

Is the equality of women and men positive? For many theists it is not.

For what you have written to be meaningful, you have to start from a theistic perspective of our lives having a purpose.
But there is no evidence for this.
You accept on faith that there is a purpose, so what your conciousness allows you to percieve as the world it believes has meaning. This need not be true.
You are thinking inside the bounds of your narrow little perspective, imprinting your perceptions on to reality, and existing within that narrow perception as if it is correct, never able to see the larger picture outside the bounds of your perception.

What next for an atheist?
The same as what is next for a theist, which consists of operating as they are able to under the natural laws which govern how the systems they consist of operate. Following the natural instinct/opeartion of these systems which result in attempting perpetuation and survival, and doing so in a calculated way out of a need imposed by the systems themselves, all the time while being fooled into thinking the result of the brain system (the conciousness) is something special, rather than seeing it as it is, a simple result of a system which will one day cease to exist once the system is no longer structuraly able to output the result.

We make the mistake of differentiating ourselves from other systems of matter, because the system that comprises us results in what seems to be self awareness. This is simply by-product of the systems interacting, not the purpose.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

Who defines what is "positive"?

Do note that we're under no obligation to play by plumjam's rules here. He's introducing the term "negative statement" in its grammatical sense only to seconds later turn around and use it in an everyday sense. Negative = bad. "How can you live by a negative value?"

Guess what, plumjam, "I don't think you're stupid" is a negative statement as well. "I don't enjoy setting fire to people's homes while they're asleep" is, too. Do you see how a statement being negative is a poor way to judge the value of the message conveyed?

 

[slingblade]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Let's say a bunch of grown-ups used the power of their years, and a Book, to convince you of a group of fairy tales and promises as a child. After you grew too hurt by the lies and abuse to keep swallowing, you left. You look--for the first time, you really, honestly look--at all you've been taught, all the pain you've endured, the lies you've believed and the promises that never, ever were kept. You use critical thinking (which your old crowd said was bad and of the devil) and reason (ibid). Not at all surprisingly, you logically arrive at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

Same planet I've always been on, yes. The world hasn't changed; just my outlook on it.

What do you do now?

Live. As best I may, and hurting no one, while avoiding being hurt any more.

Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

But, I don't. The only people I ever talk to about religion are the ones who come here, to the forum where my friends and I chat. They knock on my door--I don't stand at theirs. They enter my sitting room--I don't set foot in theirs. Thus, if they don't like what they hear here....whose fault is that, again?

I never heard of a missionary who sits home and waits for converts to come to her.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?
Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

All I know is who is helping me. I believe they are all found right here.

My values do not harm you and are none of your business. But they do not include sexually abusing children, or beating up and subjugating women. I know where I personally found those particular values, and had them used on me. Hint: not one of my tormentors was atheist.

Well, it's up to you.

It's always been up to me. Did you think I needed telling?

What next?
Preferably positive.

I don't know. I'm still trying very hard to recover from a lifetime of abuse from the religious. This includes child sexual abuse, committed by Christian men; peer abuse committed by Christian children; and spousal abuse committed by a Christian man.

Did you actually have a question, I wonder?

 

[Radrook]

According to my ethics class, the word you're looking for is "intersubjective". That is, most humans agree on these morals. Are they, however, identical on Omicron Persii-8?

As you already know, and as I recall from my ethics class, right or wrong conduct in relation to human relations is based on our human condition. It was summarized in the following way:

We are mortal
We suffer both physically and mentally
We are able to reason
We are social creatures.

Each one of these creates a duty.

Our ability to reason creates the duty of respecting freedom of choice if that choice indeed is within a person's ability to make and doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

Which in turn creates the duty of truthfulness in order not to deprive others of their right make informed decisions is created.

Our ability to suffer both mentally and physically creates the duty of compassion via not inflicting unnecessary pain, and rendering assistance to alleviate suffering.

Our social dependence on one another for survival creates the duty of cooperation in order to increase survival chances.

So if indeed are humans identical to us on Persii-8 or even creatures who are not physically human but who share our faculties, then the same moral duties apply.

If not, then why is nature the way it is; full of organisms eating, destroying other organisms, cannibalism, parasites etc?

The Christian answer to the question would be that there has been a corruption or deviation of nature which created the predator prey situation.

Are they only applicable to members of the same species? If so, why,

Any creature capable of suffering creates the duty of compassion regardless of species.

and what is a species?

Species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[
In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. ... Each species is placed within a single genus. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

 

[Mister Agenda]

Another atheistic charity, this one undeniable by any reasonable standard: EARTHWARD. I forget what the acronym stands for but it is an atheist-sponsored charity for the victims of religion-inspired violence.

 

[Olowkow]

The Christian answer to the question would be that there has been a corruption or deviation of nature which created the predator prey situation.

Yeah well, cats need meat, or they go blind or die. "The Christian answer" doesn't make it true. It's just one of the plethora of variations on Christian "answers".

I grew up as a Christian and never heard that one, and my dad was the minister.

"Corruption" of nature is just a buzz word. Where is the proof for this corruption or deviation? How long did it take to convert cats from veggies to meat? Did cats have teeth like elephants in those days? And why?

 

[Radrook]

Yeah well, cats need meat, or they go blind or die. "The Christian answer" doesn't make it true. It's just one of the plethora of variations on Christian "answers".

That's your opinion. OK. Then don't worry and be happy.

I grew up as a Christian and never heard that one, and my dad was the minister.

Then neither you nor your father was qualified to teach the bible since it's right there in front of you in Genesis. : )

Genesis 1:
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food."

Matthew 15:14,
"If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit."

The concept is a one among all Christian denominations which use the Bible on a regular basis..That the original condition of this world was meant to be a paradise, as Genesis points out, and that because of the fall into sin all things changed to the conditions we have now. In fact, the restoration to the former peaceful relations among the animals is spoken is prophetically mentioned in:

Isaiah 65:24-25 (King James Version)

24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

"Corruption" of nature is just a buzz word. Where is the proof for this corruption or deviation? How long did it take to convert cats from veggies to meat? Did cats have teeth like elephants in those days? And why?

Since its' just a buzz word to you why are you trying to waste my time asking me questions????

BTW
I am not seeking debates. Just trying to prevent miisconceptions leading to misrepresentations.

 

[CapelDodger]

The Christian answer to the question would be that there has been a corruption or deviation of nature which created the predator prey situation.

That leaves your god's creation as being at the very least as full of holes as Windows.

This whole predator/prey thing : did the prey err by asking for it? Did the predators err by doing it? Where do free will and souls enter into the matter? The whole "lion and lamb" thing was laid down long before Jeebus brought the next installment of "The Word", and meat-eating is still quite widespread amongst Christians, as is hunting and killing.

Your "Christian answer" calls for some fleshing out, don't you think?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Funny how I don't see many Christers preaching veganism. After all, if eating meat is supposed to be due to some sort of spiritual corruption, why compound the corruption?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Let's say a bunch of grown-ups used the power of their years, and a Book, to convince you of a group of fairy tales and promises as a child. After you grew too hurt by the lies and abuse to keep swallowing, you left. You look--for the first time, you really, honestly look--at all you've been taught, all the pain you've endured, the lies you've believed and the promises that never, ever were kept. You use critical thinking (which your old crowd said was bad and of the devil) and reason (ibid). Not at all surprisingly, you logically arrive at atheism.

Don't forget that those religious fairy tales and lies are often used as a justification for utter bigotry toward groups who really haven't harmed anyone and tyrannical authority over all people.

I can barely tolerate religious woo on its own, but those who would mix religion with state need to stomped on before they get any degree of power. This atheist doesn't want to end up up in front of a Christian firing squad, courtesy of a society that caters to the delusional whims of plumjam, D.O.C., Radrook, or others like them.

 

[Tricky]

I had to stop by the grocery store again today for some fresh mushrooms for the stir-fry I was making tonight, and, of course, I got into the shortest line. I immediately realized it was the shortest line because the woman at the counter was desperately looking through her wallet and taking things out of her already-rung-up cart. She had miscalculated. She didn't have enough money. The cashier and the one other person in the line were staring daggers at her, while her three kids were looking disconsolate as she put the box of cheap generic cookies back on the counter.

I stepped around the fellow in front of me and said to her, "You look like you got caught short. Please take this," as I handed her a twenty dollar bill. "Gracias señor!" she cried, as I stepped back in line with a big smile on my face. It was matched by the smiles of the children as she picked up the cookies and put them back in the cart.

Dammit, I've got to stop going to supermarkets. The other atheists are starting to make fun of me.

 

[joobz]

I had to stop by the grocery store again today for some fresh mushrooms for the stir-fry I was making tonight, and, of course, I got into the shortest line. I immediately realized it was the shortest line because the woman at the counter was desperately looking through her wallet and taking things out of her already-rung-up cart. She had miscalculated. She didn't have enough money. The cashier and the one other person in the line were staring daggers at her, while her three kids were looking disconsolate as she put the box of cheap generic cookies back on the counter.

I stepped around the fellow in front of me and said to her, "You look like you got caught short. Please take this," as I handed her a twenty dollar bill. "Gracias señor!" she cried, as I stepped back in line with a big smile on my face. It was matched by the smiles of the children as she picked up the cookies and put them back in the cart.

Dammit, I've got to stop going to supermarkets. The other atheists are starting to make fun of me.

Athe will reward you greatly with many gay baby eating orgies.

 

[wuschel]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?
Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?
Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

Well, it's up to you. What next?
Preferably positive.

Well imagine that - after examining all the evidence, spending a few years trying to...

blah, blah, blah... you eventually fin out: There is no Easter Bunny!

Well, me, personally, I would regard any time spent trying to convince other people of the existence of the EB - and the consequences the mere existence of the EB is to have on their lives - not just as wasted but rather something I would have to apologize for, should I ever have been taken seriously.

Then what:

- What is positive about there not being an Easter Bunny?
- Are there any specifically non-easterbunny-ist values?
- Are there any specifically non-easterbunny-ist charities that endeavor to improve the plight of individuals?

Atheism (simply put) is the lack of theistic belief. Keeping Hume in mind and the notion that what is cannot be used to determine what should be, on what grounds do you think you can develop morality from factuality?

Actually, you cannot. Easy as that!

 

[X]

I had to stop by the grocery store again today for some fresh mushrooms for the stir-fry I was making tonight, and, of course, I got into the shortest line. I immediately realized it was the shortest line because the woman at the counter was desperately looking through her wallet and taking things out of her already-rung-up cart. She had miscalculated. She didn't have enough money. The cashier and the one other person in the line were staring daggers at her, while her three kids were looking disconsolate as she put the box of cheap generic cookies back on the counter.

I stepped around the fellow in front of me and said to her, "You look like you got caught short. Please take this," as I handed her a twenty dollar bill. "Gracias señor!" she cried, as I stepped back in line with a big smile on my face. It was matched by the smiles of the children as she picked up the cookies and put them back in the cart.

Dammit, I've got to stop going to supermarkets. The other atheists are starting to make fun of me.

I once did something like that.
I was buying lunch at a mall, and the Interac machines were down. The teenagers in front of me had no cash, and with the debit system down, couldn't pay. Since I had cash, I paid for their meals as well as my own.
I confess, that was partially due to my hunger making me impatient to eat, but alslo partly due to that fact that I dislike seeing people upset.
It didn't match your $20, though.

And bringin this whole side-track back to the OP:
Well, Plumjam, do you still want to contend that atheists are no good, or are you going to say that such acts of charity are due to god directing our immortal unbelieving souls?

 

[CapelDodger]

Then neither you nor your father weren't qualified to teach the bible. : )

By that, are you claiming that you are? If so, on what basis?

Matthew 15:14,
"If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit."

What's that got to do with cats being non-elective carnivores? Apart from the word "blind" being involved, of course.

The concept is a one among all Christian denominations which use the Bible on a regular basis..That the original condition of this world was meant to be a paradise, as Genesis points out ...

So your god meant it to be. but there were design flaws that left us with the world we live in. Or your god is imaginary, and we still live in the world we live in. The one where lions and lambs are antagonists.

... and that because of the fall into sin all things changed to the conditions we have now. In fact, the restoration to the former peaceful relations among the animals is spoken is prophetically mentioned in:

Isaiah 65:24-25 (King James Version)

24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Clear as a bell.

But this leaves us with blind straw-munching lions whose mountain-climbing (holy or otherwise) days are over. If you doubt me, climb a mountain blindfolded with only your god's guidance. Not an attractive proposition, is it? If you take it on, please let us know how it works out for you.

The predator/prey thing clearly predates Isaiah. How far back do you want to take it?

Since its' just a buzz word to you what are you trying to waste my time asking me questions????

Yikes!

Sod the buzzword, where's the blame? Cats have been around far longer than HomSap, so whose was the original sin?

 

[Tricky]

I once did something like that.
I was buying lunch at a mall, and the Interac machines were down. The teenagers in front of me had no cash, and with the debit system down, couldn't pay. Since I had cash, I paid for their meals as well as my own.
I confess, that was partially due to my hunger making me impatient to eat, but alslo partly due to that fact that I dislike seeing people upset.
It didn't match your $20, though.

No, everything is relative. In fact, it didn't turn out to be a whole $20. She gave me back my change, though it was just a couple of bucks.

Well, Plumjam, do you still want to contend that atheists are no good, or are you going to say that such acts of charity are due to god directing our immortal unbelieving souls?

Well, you could say some of us are good, or our similar incidents could show that we are just impatient bastards.

 

[joobz]

Well, you could say some of us are good, or our similar incidents could show that we are just impatient bastards.

It was an ungodly act.


So, where do we stand on the point?

How many examples of good deeds done by atheists or examples of atheists with a clear set of morals are needed to disprove the OP?

In counter, how many examples are needed of theists who've done bad deeds or have had a bad moral compass is needed to disprove the OP?


It's clear that the examples of both occur, it is also clear that PLumjam won't accept these as proof of anything. So, where does it leave us?

 

[qayak]

In answer to the OP: Atheism is the highest pinnacle of human spiritual achievement, nothing comes next. There are only those who have reached the pinnacle and those at various points on the climb.

 

[Tricky]

It's clear that the examples of both occur, it is also clear that PLumjam won't accept these as proof of anything. So, where does it leave us?

Exactly where we came in, belief-wise, but with lots of wonderful, touching and hilarious posts and stories. So really, we are left much richer. My life would have been less illuminated without that post of Roadtoad's, for example. Damn I wish I could write like that guy.