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Merged So there was melted steel

I would be vey surprised if the steel beams had not buckled under the impacts of several floors collapsing on top of each other at a rapid rate, they do not need to be in a molten state for that to occur.

Ever tried bending a steel paper clip?
 
ergo said:
:D

So you're saying this is just a buckled column.
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No melting has occured in any of those photos. If you understood the effect of heat on ductility you would understand how human beings are able to form steel into many different shapes without melting.

Did you know that the definition of hot forming is forming at a temperature that is above half the melting point temperature (Tm)? Did you know that hot forming for steel takes place above 750°C? Did you know that cold forming typically is defined as forming below 0.5Tm? So you can cold form at 600°C. Although I'll state that there is a caveat here because we have to talk in terms of recystallisation and annealing temperatures so recystallisation typically takes place between 0.3Tm and 0.5Tm so we further define working below half the melting point into 2 categories - Cold working which takes place below 0.3Tm and Warm working which takes place in the recrystalisation temperature range.

So you can cold work steel at 400°C. ;)

Because you've never had any experience of forming steel at any temperature you'll have no idea just how much deformation can be produced in the recrystalisation temperature range. That range is easily attainable in a fire. So what you consider to be melted is simply large deformation produced by high load between 0.3 and 0.5 Tm (Tm = melting temperature).
 
Justin39640 said:
LMAO! Yes, it's one of the properties of steel, structural or otherwise lol. :rolleyes:
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I think "moon-sized field of rubble" ergo is getting confused as to exactly what ductile means. He seems to be laboring under the delusion that a ductile material must be easily workable at room temperature. If you apply enough force to steel at room temperature, it will bend, not shatter; that is the entire point of ductility. Heat lowers the amount of force necessary to accomplish this bending. So, yes, ergo, I do think that steel is ductile at room temperature, but that doesn't mean that I would be able to bend or deform a structural steel beam with my bare hands when it's cold. It does mean that several thousand tons of material crashing on top of said beam would be able to bend and deform it rather than it shattering like glass, though.
 
Anyway, I'll be interested when someone can answer this question.

We know it won't be Justin. ;)
 
thedopefishlives said:
I think "moon-sized field of rubble" ergo is getting confused as to exactly what ductile means. He seems to be laboring under the delusion that a ductile material must be easily workable at room temperature. If you apply enough force to steel at room temperature, it will bend, not shatter; that is the entire point of ductility. Heat lowers the amount of force necessary to accomplish this bending. So, yes, ergo, I do think that steel is ductile at room temperature, but that doesn't mean that I would be able to bend or deform a structural steel beam with my bare hands when it's cold. It does mean that several thousand tons of material crashing on top of said beam would be able to bend and deform it rather than it shattering like glass, though.
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I would also think that would be pretty much common knowledge hence my LMAO! lol
 
ergo said:
I don't have a problem with "so what". As long as we can agree on the likelihood, given the evidence and the numerous testimonials, of molten steel in the pile.

We can end the discussion here if you want.
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You want to end the discussion where it's supposed to start. The premise of the OP is that there was melted steel, the question is what does that mean.

What does melted steel tell you about the buildings collapse?
 
ergo said:
Anyway, I'll be interested when someone can answer this question.

We know it won't be Justin. ;)
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What are "liquid-like piles"?

You like to make-up terms so no one can answer your questions. You have not shown any steel in a "liquid-like pile".

BTW: Is structural steel ductile at room temp?
 
Justin39640 said:
The only evidence of steel "melting" were corrosive attacks which have nothing to do with melting by heat. Maybe some thin walled steel melted (like thin gauge computer cases) but not enough to create "rivers" of molten steel. If there was rivers they would have been pulling solidified globs out of the pile that were several tons.

I even got Christophera (spelling?) to agree that a source of molten metals could have been aluminum when I showed him just how much you could expect to find in cars and trucks in the parking garage/loading docks underground when the towers fell (several hundred pounds to a few tons each).
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I'm reproducing the OP for everyones' benifit:

Yes in this thread I won't even contend there was no molten steel. I will do this so that I can finally get some answers as to how the presence of it means anything malicious.

As such I would like to know:

Is this supposed to mean thermite was used?

If so how much thermite (a self oxidizing agent) is needed to still be reacting six weeks after initiation?

Why are other avenues of steel melting (such as in a rare natural furnace effect) dismissed?

Since liquids follow the path of least resistance they will pool at the bottom of the bathtub. How was the steel that solidified there removed and where did it go?



As you can see the question isn't whether or not there was melted steel but what is the significance of it. Questioning the existence of melted steel is a derail and merely gives the truthers a place to hide.
 
ergo said:
Sunstealer said this, dcdrac:



Assuming he's talking about structural steel -- because that's what we're talking about here -- he is saying that structural steel is ductile at room temperature. Do you find that a credible claim?
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Of course it's ductile at room temperature. The specification for A36 steel defines a minimum of 23% elongation. Are you trying to tell the engineering world that a material that can stretch a minimum of 23% of it's original length (before fracture) isn't ductile?

You are hopelessly out of your depth. You can't even look up and understand what ductility actually means.

One of the very first things you learn in a metallurgy degree and are shown in the lab is the "Ductile to Brittle transition (temperature) in steel". Look it up, you might learn something.
 
thedopefishlives said:
It does mean that several thousand tons of material crashing on top of said beam would be able to bend and deform it rather than it shattering like glass, though.
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There should be plenty of evidence or documentation of this effect. Please provide some or cite some published source besides an anonymous internet bedunker.
 
Sunstealer said:
Of course it's ductile at room temperature. The specification for A36 steel defines a minimum of 23% elongation. Are you trying to tell the engineering world that a material that can stretch a minimum of 23% of it's original length (before fracture) isn't ductile?

You are hopelessly out of your depth. You can't even look up and understand what ductility actually means.

One of the very first things you learn in a metallurgy degree and are shown in the lab is the "Ductile to Brittle transition (temperature) in steel". Look it up, you might learn something.
Click to expand...

Please explain how this is relevant to anything we're discussing.

You know: applying your knowledge to problems at hand?
 
tsig said:
I'm reproducing the OP for everyones' benifit:

Yes in this thread I won't even contend there was no molten steel. I will do this so that I can finally get some answers as to how the presence of it means anything malicious.

As such I would like to know:

Is this supposed to mean thermite was used?

If so how much thermite (a self oxidizing agent) is needed to still be reacting six weeks after initiation?

Why are other avenues of steel melting (such as in a rare natural furnace effect) dismissed?

Since liquids follow the path of least resistance they will pool at the bottom of the bathtub. How was the steel that solidified there removed and where did it go?



As you can see the question isn't whether or not there was melted steel but what is the significance of it. Questioning the existence of melted steel is a derail and merely gives the truthers a place to hide.
Click to expand...

Oops sorry. Maybe a mod can change the thread title a bit to make that more obvious? The OP was a few pages back :D
 
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