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Merged So there was melted steel

Perhaps a link to the exact thread he is referring to would be called for as well. Especially if MM believes there is more to be debated on the topic of whether or not there was molten steel and whether or not various experts are correct in saying that fire "melted' the steel.

Thats what really gets me, they say they are experts are saying there was melted steel, yet these same "experts" talk about fire melting it as it happens all the time, which would definitely make them NOT experts. :D
 
Can you be any more casual when referring to smelting-furnace level temperatures?

A match is fire.

How many buried-in-dust matches do you figure it would take to melt steel over months?

MM
There's a lot of irony in you accusing someone else of being vague and imprecise.

I also not your usage of a question that implies that you know the answer. From experience, I know you don't. You're just trying to keep the debate going.
 
Question to ALL: Are you mindful of the OP? Of the topic of this thread?
Are you assuming that there was molten steel, instead of arguing whether there was molten steel?

Are are you still allowing ergo to dodge and run away from the topic of this thread?
 
Question to ALL: Are you mindful of the OP? Of the topic of this thread?
Are you assuming that there was molten steel, instead of arguing whether there was molten steel?

Are are you still allowing ergo to dodge and run away from the topic of this thread?

Not at all. I've said it before. I don't care if there was molten steel. Show me how it changes the "official story".

Bet you can't?

(PM me if you want to make a wager).


I'm fairly sure I understand. Funny, they haven't taken me up on this.

:rolleyes:
 
No one is arguing about the presence of molten steel just what it would signify.

Ignoring the fact that this question has already been answered several times, I would point out that you need only ask one of your own, EdX, who has spent the last ten pages arguing that there was no molten steel because there couldn't possibly be.

What you folks need to decide is whether you believe the reports and the visual evidence or not. And if you don't, why not? What are your reasons for not believing it? Then you have an answer to your question, and a useful discussion. Until then, you're just going around in your usual logical circles and asking others to explain what you can't.
 
Ignoring the fact that this question has already been answered several times, .

No it has not. As close as you've come was tmd2_1 declaring it couldn't be done without some magic concoction he can't define.(that's off topic because the OP gives you it).

Want to try again?

Show me (us) how it changes the "official story".
 
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Ignoring the fact that this question has already been answered several times, I would point out that you need only ask one of your own, EdX, who has spent the last ten pages arguing that there was no molten steel because there couldn't possibly be.

What you folks need to decide is whether you believe the reports and the visual evidence or not. And if you don't, why not? What are your reasons for not believing it? Then you have an answer to your question, and a useful discussion. Until then, you're just going around in your usual logical circles and asking others to explain what you can't.


No it hasn't. stop derailing, For the sake of argument we will assume molten flowing steel. Now its your job to flesh out how! Go ahead. don't be bashful, Give us the entire story of how this means inside job or any
conspiracy for that matter. Times a wasting. 10 years not enough to put it all together??
 
This is the "it's been answered".


Because steel melts at about 2700F, the hottest jet fuel burns at is about 1800F, there is nothing that would burn hotter than this 1800F in a normal office environment. Given this there is nothing that should have been naturally occurring that was hot enough to melt steel. So if there was melted steel, game over for the official story. It doesn't matter whether it was thermite or some other agent. If there was molten steel, it's game over for the official story.

He never actually says what the "official story" of "molten steel" is. As far as I know there is none. Naturally anyone can correct me on this (and I encourage you to do so).
 
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Apparently you didn't hear me the first time:

You need only ask EdX, who has spent the last ten pages arguing that there was no molten steel because there couldn't possibly be.

If it was not possible, then how do you explain it? This is your question. Answer it. Why have you wasted 65 pages not answering your own moronic question? Are you incompetent?
You don't get it (not surprising). No one cares what EdX posted (in terms of the OP, no offence EdX). WE ARE GIVING YOU THE MOLTEN STEEL. How does it change the "Official story"?
 
Ignoring the fact that this question has already been answered several times, I would point out that you need only ask one of your own, EdX, who has spent the last ten pages arguing that there was no molten steel because there couldn't possibly be.

I never said that. :rolleyes:

Why do you always try and claim people say something they specifically told you earlier that they aren't saying?

I specifically told you that it is unlikely that there was melted steel. That's what everyone here has said. However, under certain conditions it is conceivable that steel could have melted in the WTC rubble pile fire. A furnace effect, if you will, because after all what is a furnace but simply a well insulated fire. This thread is asking - hypothetically - that even if it did, how does this necessarily point to thermite, rather than some kind of furnace effect and why is thermite more likely than some kind of furnace effect.

What I am saying to you is that the reports of melted steel on 911 is not special or remarkable and can be found in hundreds of other fires. The only thing that is new at the WTC is the eutectic reaction in certain pieces of steel, but truthers don't seem to understand that this is not "melting" the way truthers think of it, due to steel melting temperatures, but rather a chemical process lower than the melting point of steel.

The fact remains that melted metals are COMMON in hundreds of other fires. Firefighters are taught, as I showed you, what metals melt in fires and that steel can appear melted when it hasn't. They are also taught that it should not be assumed that just becuase there is melted metals that there was necessarily an accelerant present. I have also showed you that even though they are taught this, fire experts have still in the past not only said that steel melted in fires when it probably did not, but they also said that fire melted it. I have proved to you that people refer to melted steel when they really meant softened, because that is literally what they went on to say. I have shown you that people and experts casually say that fire melted steel as if its a common occurrence.

The people on 911 that you say saw steel melting has ever even implied that they believe it points to anything suspicious or points to something like thermite. Why not? You claim they are experts, yet don't seem to care that they don't share your interpretation, something you feel any unqualified guy on the internet can understand easily yet they do not. So then they can't be much of an expert in what metals melt in fires, can they? Maybe they don't mean what you think they meant when they said melted steel, just like all those other people. That we have people saying the same exact things on 911 is not remarkable, it is entirely expected, Much like when truthrs show reports of explosions. This is extremely common in even more examples than can be found for melted steel and melted metal observations. Its so common that if no one said they heard explosions on 911, that would be quite remarkable!




What you folks need to decide is whether you believe the reports and the visual evidence or not. And if you don't, why not? What are your reasons for not believing it?

Several of the same people saying that there was melted steel also say fire melted the steel and say that as if this happens all the time, but since you think this is nonsense, then by your own logic these people cannot be experts enough to say whether there was melted steel or not. Are they experts, or are they incompetent? And if they are incompetent, why does what they say matter at all?
 
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Ignoring the fact that this question has already been answered several times,
The only response from the conspiracy side of this has been that If molten steel exists then it could not have been an office fire caused collapse. That DOES NOT answer the OP in the slightest. Care to give it a whirl yourself? Perhaps link to an explanation by one of the stars of the conspiracy movement who outlines the mechanism by which thermite was used to bring down the towers in the manner by which they were observed to have come down

I would point out that you need only ask one of your own, EdX, who has spent the last ten pages arguing that there was no molten steel because there couldn't possibly be.

What you folks need to decide is whether you believe the reports and the visual evidence or not. And if you don't, why not? What are your reasons for not believing it? Then you have an answer to your question, and a useful discussion. Until then, you're just going around in your usual logical circles and asking others to explain what you can't.

The fact that you and others who do not accept the common history of events of Setp. 11/01 keep bringing up the argue for the existance of molten steel and getting responses from others opposed to that notion DOES NOT change the FACT that in THIS thread the existance of molten steel is accepted as a given.

Can I explain how thermite was used to bring down the towers in the manner by which they were observed to have come down? NO, but then again I don't claim it was, people like you DO but won't explain it. IOW you simply take it on faith that molten steel=thermite=CD.


It has been pointed out time and again that reports by witnesses, firemen, even engineers, of molten steel in other fire situations are commonplace. Using this as a basis for accepting the existance of molten steel we now have the questions posed in the OP. Rather than address the OP you seem fixated on recounting more reports of molten steel , this time in the specific fire enviroment of the WTC.


Can I explain how molten steel was created in the towers? Possibly! I already in this thread outlined an experiment by which one might cause a natural furnace effect capable of melting metals, possibly even steel.
 
But ergo, I never even implied they were stupid.

You however demand they be so stupid they don't know that melted steel means thermite or a demolition something you think is so obvious any unqualified guy on the internet can easily understand it. You are the one that must assume they are stupid.

I however simply suggest that they probably don't mean what you think they mean, just like the hundreds of other examples I gave you. People reporting melted steel in fires is not remarkable, its common, and therefore not surprising to find it happen on 911. Not sure why that is such a hard concept for you guys to grasp.

Ed



So apparently, the way to "debunk" something here on the JREF 9/11 forum is simply to offer your opinion that

"ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE STOOPID!! I, ANONYMOUS INTERNET POSTER WITH SCATTERED AMATEUR KNOWLEDGE THAT DOESN'T REALLY HELP ME WITH ANYTHING USEFUL IN REAL LIFE, KNOW FAR MORE ABOUT THESE MATTERS THAN ENGINEERS AND FIREFIGHTERS!! LET ME TELL YOU!!"

"LESLIE ROBERTSON IS STOOOPID!!"

"RICHARD GARLOCK IS STOOOPID!!"

"DON CARSON IS STOOOPID!!"

"JONATHAN BARNETT IS STOOOPID!!!"

”ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH-ASL IS STOOOPID!!"

"RICHARD RIGGS IS STOOOPID!!"

"MECHANICAL ENGINEERS ARE STOOOPID!!"

"FIRE ENGINEERS ARE STOOOOPID!!"

"IRON WORKERS ARE STOOOPID!!"

"DEMOLITION EXPERTS ARE STOOOPID!!"

"THE A.S.S.E. IS STOOOPID!!"

"THE U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY IS STOOOPID!!!"

"R.J. LEE IS STOOOPID!!!".
 
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it is unlikely that there was melted steel... However, under certain conditions it is conceivable that steel could have melted in the WTC rubble pile fire. A furnace effect, if you will, because after all what is a furnace but simply a well insulated fire. This thread is asking - hypothetically - that even if it did, how does this necessarily point to thermite, rather than some kind of furnace effect and why is thermite more likely than some kind of furnace effect.


So here is your question in a nutshell.

Why is it more likely that it's a result of some thermitic action than a furnace effect? I don't have the knowledge to answer that. But what answer are you hoping for here? If someone tells you that active thermitic compounds were found in WTC dust, you're just going to say "No they weren't!" and then we're back to a number of other idiotic threads on this forum.

One has to question the intelligence of people who insist on answers they have no intention of accepting.

Your time would be better spent answering how a furnace effect could be created in a debris pile which received an estimated 4 million gallons of water in its first 10 days alone.
 
He never actually says what the "official story" of "molten steel" is. As far as I know there is none. Naturally anyone can correct me on this (and I encourage you to do so).
No, this is about as far as any of the stories go. If melted steel is there, then they make the leap that thermite brought the towers down. To them, the premise of the OP is in of itself proof of "how" the towers collapsed. I've never seen it interpreted differently by conspiracy believers.
 
No, this is about as far as any of the stories go. If melted steel is there, then they make the leap that thermite brought the towers down. To them, the premise of the OP is in of itself proof of "how" the towers collapsed. I've never seen it interpreted differently by conspiracy believers.
That's a hell of a "leap". So the claim is, if the "official story" does not actually include the "molten steel" it must be a cover-up because the claim of "molten steel" is in itself proof of foul play?

<that hurt to type>
 
Ergo:

Where is the conspiracy for molten steel? How are these reports of molten steel different than the WTC?

From post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7845108&postcount=2277


"The heat of the fire that erupted when the tanker crashed melted the heavy steel girders supporting the overpass, causing it to sag about 7 feet toward"
-Bridge repair rushed
Connecticut Post - NewsBank - Mar 27, 2004


A fire in a wrecked chemical truck Friday caused an estimated million damage by melting bridge girders
-Truck Fire Burns Hole In Bridge .
Youngstown Vindicator - Dec 3, 1977


The massive six-alarm blaze caused by a construction accident, melted steel girders on nearby construction projects
-Massive Fire Engulfs Several Blocks .
Boca Raton News -May 20, 2000



"PITTSBURGH - A spectacular general alarm fire, its heat so intense that it melted steel girders, has destroyed a vacant warehouse in the city's Strip"
-Spectacular Fire .
Gettysburg Times Aug 9, 1975



"The fire, fueled by the undersea oil and gas the crewmen worked each day to harness, burned so hot it melted the steel girders. First the derrick collapsed"
-
DISASTERS STRIKE WORLDS APART OIL RIG
Miami Herald - July 8, 1988



How about fire experts?


" That truck type has several compartments, each holding about 5,000 gallons" said Birmingham Fire Chief Eugene Rouveyrol. "It must have been burning at at least 5,000 degrees to melt those steel bridge girders", added the chief"
"Rig Fire Burns Hole In Bridge"
-- Youngstown Vindicator - Dec 3, 1977

IS FIRE CHIEF EUGENE ROUVEYROL STOOOPID?
"What apparently drove residents to risk life and limb was dense, acrid smoke that filled the building and flames "so hot they melted steel," [Fire Commissioner Raymond] Orozco said."
4 DIE IN HIGH-RISE FIRE
-- Chicago Sun-Times - January 18, 1996

IS FIRE COMMISSIONER RAYMOND OROZCO STOOOPID?
"Temperatures in the buildings mist have reached at least 1000 degrees to melt the steel beams that supoorted the roof, Lexington County Fire Coordinator Louis Seyle said"
- Heavy Damages In Boat Manufacturing Company
-- Newberry Observer - Jun 18, 1984

IS LEXINGTON COUNTY FIRE COORDINATOR STOOOPID??


So OK Ergo, we are giving you your molten steel , now run with it. Show us why the examples above are not unusual.... but WTC is.
 
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So here is your question in a nutshell.

Why is it more likely that it's a result of some thermitic action than a furnace effect? I don't have the knowledge to answer that. But what answer are you hoping for here? If someone tells you that active thermitic compounds were found in WTC dust, you're just going to say "No they weren't!" and then we're back to a number of other idiotic threads on this forum.

You cant use one faulty claim to backup another.

You claim there was melted steel because "experts" like Robertson or Chris Wise talked about melted steel.

Now you want to use Robertson despite him saying he didnt say it, therefore according to your own theory he must be lying about it later and therefore in on a conspiracy but therefore a moron because according to you he admitted the conspiracy to a room full of people that was being video taped. You want to use Chris Wise as an expert talking about melting steel, only he never said that there was melted steel on 911, what he said that steel would have melted from fire as if this happens quite easily and is a common occurrence something you say does not happen. Which, as I said before, would make him not an expert by your own standards.

Nothing any of them said is at all strange and I can find hundreds of other examples of people talking about melting steel in other fires. You have yet to give any reason why I should believe that these things that happened on 911 is remarkable or suspicious when I can see the same things happen in plenty of other fires.

Your time would be better spent answering how a furnace effect could be created in a debris pile which received an estimated 4 million gallons of water in its first 10 days alone.

Landfill-fire1.jpg


It wouldn't be the first time.

They have great trouble stopping the oxygen getting into landfill fires even when they dump tons of water on it. For example in the Vancouver Landfill fire in 2000, they continued applying water around the clock but it still took a week before they saw oxygen levels dropping,

To cut off the oxygen supply to the fire, additional clay intermediate cover was placed on the side slopes of the burning cell over the weekend. Water application continued around the clock. Within a week the monitoring results conclusively demonstrated that carbon monoxide, temperature and oxygen levels were dropping.

Or this one, where 2,000 gallons per minute quickly ran off the surface and didn't extinguish the fires deep inside.

Initially, water was applied to the fire in high-pressure streams in excess of 2,000 gallons per minute (gpm). This extinguished flames at the surface but did not quell the fire brewing deep in the landfill. In fact, most of the water quickly ran off the surface, draining to the landfill toe where pools of toxic black leachate were form

Here is two more landfill fires. Each took weeks to extinguish, the first continued to smolder for 4 months despite "injections of more than 1,000 pounds of liquid carbon dioxide"



On January 26, 1998, an employee at Richard DeCoite’s construction and demolition (C&D) landfill in Ma’alaea, Maui, noticed an odd odor, which led to the discovery of a fire 15 to 20 feet underground. Attempts were made to smother it with injections of more than 1,000 pounds of liquid carbon dioxide. The fire was eventually
deemed to be extinguished in a matter of weeks, although it continued to smolder for 4 months.

S An underground landfill fire that was discovered in December of 1=1996 in Dan-bury, New Jersey, caused an unpleasant odor (which smelled like rotton eggs due to the high concentration of hydrogen sulfide in landfills). The odor spread into two surrounding neighborhoods. The fire lasted for weeks and the town was forced to install a gas recovery system, whose cost exceeded $1 million.

This one took nearly two months.

Restoring the Land Nearly two months after the firefighting began, the landfill was finally extinguished on Jan. 18, 2000.

And this landfill tire fire in the UK has been burning for over 13 YEARS

Whoever set fire to the huge Heyope tyre dump near Knighton, Powys, in 1989 could have had little idea that the action would enter the record books. Almost 13 years later, Britain's longest burning tyre fire smoulders gently on.


Again, you want us to believe that the WTC fires were totally abnormal, that can only be explained by thermite. This is simply not true.

There is a reason why none of the people you quote actually agree with you. But they are experts, you cry! But experts that apparently cant figure out something some unqualified people on the internet can easily understand. You are rather selective in how much you trust their expertise.
 
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So let's sum up the thread so far:

1) The reports of melted steel didn't really mean melted steel. They meant melted other metals or steel that wasn't really melted.

2a) There was no melted steel in the debris pile.

BUT

2b) If there WAS, it was likely created by a furnace effect, which has been documented in other fires.

THEREFORE, we conclude that:

The reports of molten steel were likely erroneous, but it is nevertheless possible for steel to have melted in the debris pile via a furnace effect.

SO

The reports of molten steel were

a) correct?

or

b) incorrect?

BUT WAIT! That's off topic!!

The REAL question here is WHY WOULD MOLTEN STEEL IN THE DEBRIS PILE BE UNUSUAL??

Which really means: WHY WON"T ANYONE ANSWER OUR QUESTION WHICH WE JUST ANSWERED FOR OURSELVES??@!?
 
ergo, you have been granted that molten steel existed. Your task is to explain how that is evidence for an inside job.

The thread is as simple as that.
 

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