Merged So there was melted steel

[ergo]

And, I suppose, the air reaching the fire could have been pre-heated by passing through other regions of the generally heated rubble pile, resulting in localised hot-spots that could be well above normally expected fire temperatures.

Hot air + fire = hotter than fire fire temperatures?

 

[Travis]

You guys are amazing your own beloved NIST says "In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36)." They made no exceptions, no qualifications, (i.e well in the debris..etc). I don't or any "truther" need to say anymore than what NIST has already said.

I suppose NIST didn't consider the need for such qualifications as I'm sure they never thought their own report would be misused by someone to deny that foundry furnaces exist.

 

[The Big Dog]

I fail to see how it makes the slightest bit of difference. Does something magical happen when the building is now in debris, as opposed to standing up? It now contains material hot enough to burn steel? Did you read what I posted about what NIST said above? Also as has been pointed out to me numerous times, the debris could be considered to resemble a landfill fire. I've looked for many many hours this was the absolute hottest I found a landfill fire got to. "Maximum temperature exceeded 960oF (516oC) at the core of the hot spot, nearly four meters below the pile surface." http://etd.fcla.edu/CF/CFE0002589/Moqbel_Shadi_Y_200905_PhD.pdf
Here is some other good information it seems 170F is a cut off point of sorts. http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/fa-225.pdf

Jesus, TMD, humans discovered how to smelt metal in a furnace 5000 years ago.

We are going to have to insist that you not reverse 5000 years of human development with your truthyisms.

Thanks.

 

[Dog Town]

NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36)." They made no exceptions, no qualifications, (i.e well in the debris..etc). I don't or any "truther" need to say anymore than what NIST has already said.

Notice the self debunking!
Priceless!

 

[jaydeehess]

You guys are amazing your own beloved NIST says "In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires.

That's right. As I said though, man has had no problem melting irom/making steel using hydrocarbon fuels, for many centuries which illustrates that NIST is speaking to a specific circumstance, that of the standing towers.

Isn't that much quite obvious tmd or do you suppose nefarious goings on in the mere ability of people to make steel swords 300 years ago?

 

[jaydeehess]

And then when you consider that there was at least 50,000 tons of WTC dust spread over the debris field of ground zero and much of lower Manhattan. That alone means that there was almost 3,000 tons of formerly molten iron in the form of billions of iron microspheres present. That's solid proof on it's own. Melting steel is one thing but it takes considerably higher temperatures to vapourise it.

I think you must have skipped a step in your calculations there bill.

 

[jaydeehess]

Jesus, TMD, humans discovered how to smelt metal in a furnace 5000 years ago.

We are going to have to insist that you not reverse 5000 years of human development with your truthyisms.

Thanks.

Let's not put the Sumerians ahead of the curve. Copper and bronze don't count. Iron age began only 3200 years ago.

 

[jaydeehess]

hot air + fire = hotter than fire fire temperatures? fire

ftfy

 

[jaydeehess]

Yes in this thread I won't even contend there was no molten steel. I will do this so that I can finally get some answers as to how the presence of it means anything malicious.

9/11 Conspiracists please note the above.

Is this supposed to mean thermite was used?

Not addressed here yet.

If so how much thermite (a self oxidizing agent) is needed to still be reacting six weeks after initiation?

Not addressed here yet.

Why are other avenues of steel melting (such as in a rare natural furnace effect) dismissed?

Well ergo simply pooh-poohs the idea that fires can be made hotter and so far tmd seems to be trying to tell us that NIST says iron smelting is impossible.

Since liquids follow the path of least resistance they will pool at the bottom of the bathtub. How was the steel that solidified there removed and where did it go?

Not addressed here yet.

 

[The Big Dog]

Let's not put the Sumerians ahead of the curve. Copper and bronze don't count. Iron age began only 3200 years ago.

Sure they do, you see our hero truthers seem to be utterly bewildered by the concept of a "furnace."

Hell, I don't know, maybe they are in fact unfrozen cavemen who fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes when I fly to Europe, I wonder, am I inside some sort of giant bird? Am I gonna be digested? I don't know, because I'm a caveman, and that's the way I think! When I'm courtside at a Knicks game, I wonder if the ball is some sort of food they're fighting over. When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover, and run across the fairway to to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Imagine you were a teacher with students as dim as TMD2 and Marrow? (bills just trolling and he was likely the class smart alec), no wonder so many stop teaching after a few year.

 

[bill smith]

Sure they do, you see our hero truthers seem to be utterly bewildered by the concept of a "furnace."

Hell, I don't know, maybe they are in fact unfrozen cavemen who fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes when I fly to Europe, I wonder, am I inside some sort of giant bird? Am I gonna be digested? I don't know, because I'm a caveman, and that's the way I think! When I'm courtside at a Knicks game, I wonder if the ball is some sort of food they're fighting over. When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover, and run across the fairway to to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain.

lol. good post

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I like how tmd2_1 has completely avoided the thermite part of the topic and instead brought the battle back to the issue of temperature only. There's clearly a line in the "motel steel" argument that no truther is willing to cross, even when the other side willingly concedes enough ground to bring the debate behind that line.

 

[jaydeehess]

I like how tmd2_1 has completely avoided the thermite part of the topic and instead brought the battle back to the issue of temperature only. There's a clearly a line in the "motel steel" argument that no truther is willing to cross, even when the other side willingly gives ground.

Post 29

3 out of 4 questions in the OP have been ignored.
The only one addressed is the idea that a natrural phenomena could have raised the temp of the debris has been spoken to with ergo displaying ignorance and tmd trying to show that NIST denys iron smelting by saying that no steel melted in the towers because no hydrocarbon fuel burns hot enough.

 

[Horatius]

Hot air + fire = hotter than fire fire temperatures?

Combustion with preheated air (CWPA) is used for inferior fuels in order to increase the combustion temperature and decrease the fuel consuption especially when is applied the recovery of heat from furnace exhaust combustion gases.

Do you ever get tired of being shown to be wrong so easily?

Combustion with preheated air will be much more intense than with cold air; and as a result, higher temperatures can be obtained.

I mean, really?

 

[jaydeehess]

I hate Martinis. People say that Scotch tastes bad but will glady slurp on a glass of Gin? Might as well suck on a juniper twig.

 

[jaydeehess]

Do you ever get tired of being shown to be wrong so easily?




I mean, really?

Kits for outside air supply to wood furnaces routinely use flue heat to warm the incoming air.

High end wood stoves are engineered to allow some flue gases back into the combustion chamber and have sections where unburned flue gases are caused to ignite thus reducing creosote and increasing heat o/p.

Stainless steel wood stove chimneys are rated to withstand temperatures of up to 2100F (in Canada) but after a chimney fire must be replaced.

ETA: of course one can also ignite a piece of steel wool with a common match.

 

[Sunstealer]

You know the way that you sometimes see magnified droplets of vapourised water in the air on TV ? Usually in slow motion and they are always microspheres. Well ? RJ Lee officially reported that 5.7% of the WTC dust was composed of iron microspheres. These MUST have come from vapourised steel. There is no other source.

Particles that either were formed as a consequence of high temperature or were modified by exposure to high temperature are important WTC Dust Markers for WTC Dust. Fires that were a part of the WTC Event produced combustion-modified products that traveled with other components of WTC Dust. Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC Dust. These products are: • Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials

Page 16 RJ Lee report.

 

[Sunstealer]

Imagine you were a teacher with students as dim as TMD2 and Marrow? (bills just trolling and he was likely the class smart alec), no wonder so many stop teaching after a few year.

I'd be serving 7-10.

 

[Sunstealer]

Sure they do, you see our hero truthers seem to be utterly bewildered by the concept of a "furnace."

Oh come now, metallurgy 101 states in the very first paragraph that the only thing that can melt steel is themite. Duh!