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So how do you know you're saved?

Not to distract from some very lovely arguments but it doesn't work that way. Back when I was Christian and full of faith, I just knew. If you had asked me that question, I would have looked inward and found a definitive affirmative answer.

I probably would have ended up arguing about what I do or how I should act in order to show gratitude for having been saved. Being saved was a done deal.

Well, I guess everyone finds some answers, some more comical than others.

The Catholics, for example, have the hilarious answer of effectively making an apostle and gospel writer not just wrong, but anathema. No, seriously. The Council Of Trent had infallibly proclaimed that anyone holding the opinion that someone saved can't sin ever again, is anathema. They don't explicitly name John there, but, you know, he does say exactly what qualifies for anathema in that ruling :p

So your looking inside still would have been saner than that :p

I was more like asking how would one reconcile it with the fact that the Bible literally says it ain't so, and even offers a test to falsify that conclusion. I mean, sure, you'd look inside and be sure you're full of God's grace. But how would you have reconciled it with the Bible literally saying that if you've EVER sinned even a tiny little since your last getting that grace OR didn't quite love some neighbour, you haven't ever had it in the first place?

(Incidentally, speaking of Catholics, that at least used to be a major heresy too. Nobody could know if they have God's grace. No, seriously, that was one of the trick questions they asked of Joan d'Arc for example. Had she said that, yes, she can feel she's full of God's grace, they could have spared themselves a few days of trial and marched her to the stake right there and then.)
 
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Nope. Not when these churches are teaching that being saved makes you a "new creation," makes you "born again," and removes from you your sinful nature and desire to sin again.

So when you're nine and still committing your petty child sins, and sobbing over knowing it must not have worked, it pretty much tastes like damnation.
Hmm.... I didn't know that churches actually do that to children too. Seems pretty unforgivable to me.

Back in the early-to-mid-80s in the Bible Belt (I was in about 6th grade), a neighborhood kid invited my brothers and I to his church for Easter (on the promise of candy and fun).

When we got there, the church had a separate room for kids ("Sunday school") filled with elementary school age children (maybe between 5 to 12 years old). There were some preliminary games and a few pieces of candy, whereupon one of the only of three adults in the room started off with a screamed story of how "Jesus DIED FOR YOU!" and how their sins killed Jesus and nailed him to a cross. Most of the younger kids were bawling. This was our first, non-comedic introduction to actual frothing-at-the-mouth Christianity, and we were pretty floored this happened "in real life," as we shared "WTF!?" glances with each other.

After the fire-and-brimstone, there were some Jesus-y songs and some more candy to assuage the tears, then pairs of kids were taken off to a separate room with an adult where they were "saved." "Saving" meaning you're asked if you accept Jesus as your "savior" and ta-da! you're saved. Also, you had to sign the "saved" book. During the "saving" bit, there were games and songs for the kids awaiting their fates.

All-in-all, it was a terrific/horrific (one-time) experience that involved no sexual abuse, despite the built-in abuse-friendly structure of the agenda. The verbal and emotional abuse in itself was about as bad as I've seen in any film containing boot camp scenes from the Vietnam War era.

What didn't quite sink in for me was that they actually use that to scare the crap out of kids. Which adds some unforgivable cruelty to the stupidity.

Exactly this.
 
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Jesus Christ! ;)

It seems like every time when I start getting introspective that maybe I'm too harsh on religion, and maybe I should find another hobby, something like this comes and tells me that I'm not harsh enough...
 
Back when I was a young Catholic lad in the 50s, we got the guilt-trip thing constantly. "Jesus DIED for you!". In excruciating detail.....
I remember walking into a hospital chapel back then and seeing the most horrific statue of the just-scourged Jesus, with flesh torn away and one of the thorns from the Crown protruding near an eye... Mel Gibson couldn't have done it more graphically.
 
Heh. Well, yeah, I often joke that in my theology everyone is auto-saved every half an hour and backed up to tape on Sundays :p
 
Yes, but most of those Protestant sects insist on taking the bible literally. ESPECIALLY John, who's their most popular gospel writer. Seems to me like especially the major denominations in the USA are absolutely in love with John, as THE divinely inspired guy who wrote EXACTLY what Jesus said and believed.

Not that it's much easier for the Catholics, although I'll get into their even weirder problems later, since John is in church tradition a major link between early Christianity and late 2nd century guys like Irenaeus and whatnot. In fact, he's pretty much the main link, when those want to claim a chain of information that gives them any claim to know what really happened. If you knock him down to status of just a guy talking BS -- and actually they effectively did -- then you just lost the only documented (ok, "documented" in pious BS fabrications, rather than historically documented) chain of information. Without that, they might as well admit that the sect later known as catholicism was making crap up without any solid foundation for it.

But anyway, if someone takes John seriously and literally, that's exactly what he denies. If you can sin, then you weren't born again in the first place. You may have thought you went through with the rituals, and made up some testimonies about how bad you were before, and spoke in tongues, and all that, and therefore you ARE born again, but John says effectively, "no. If you really were born again, you'd be unable to sin. If you could sin, then you're not really born again, you're one of Satan's guys." Really, you went through the ritual and all, but the criterion for falsifying it says, nah, you weren't born again. I guess it was an abortion again, or something ;) The ritual obviously fizzled and didn't produce the result you thought it did.



The Catholics, however, took milking the flock to such extremes as to make it basically impossible to not sin, if you have any even remotely normal brain functions. Even going through a day of your life without being in a coma or maybe lobotomized, can get you to break one of the 7 deadly thought-crimes, i.e., deadly sins.

E.g., "pride" is the most grievous of the deadly sins, and STILL defined as basically claiming any merit in any of your accomplishments, instead of crediting God with giving that gift to unworthy little old you. And those last words in that sentence aren't just hyperbole. Even crediting God but claiming or even thinking that you had some personal merit that made God choose you, even praying more or stuff like that, is still landing you in hot water with God. Well, in hot burning brimstone.

And those are deadly sins by virtue of being, you know, impossible for God to forgive unless a priest intervenes on your behalf.

So effectively, the only way to be sure you're saved would be to be killed the exact instant you finished your confession or in the old days bought your indulgence. Because it doesn't take more than a funny random thought to make you unforgivable right back again before you even exit the church.



I think it depends on what gnostic sect you're talking about. The term had been applied to a variety of beliefs ranging from proper mystery cults to just fairly mainstream stuff that the dominant sect didn't agree with.

I don't think any sect will tell its members that some of them just can't be saved, though. It's bad for business, you know?

They can however make other exceptions for the truly gifted. And some did. Those really gifted could figure it out faster, or even theoretically be even able to figure out on their own.

That's what the Last Scam Sacrament is for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_the_Sick_(Catholic_Church)
 
Well, I guess everyone finds some answers, some more comical than others.

The Catholics, for example, have the hilarious answer of effectively making an apostle and gospel writer not just wrong, but anathema. No, seriously. The Council Of Trent had infallibly proclaimed that anyone holding the opinion that someone saved can't sin ever again, is anathema. They don't explicitly name John there, but, you know, he does say exactly what qualifies for anathema in that ruling :p

So your looking inside still would have been saner than that :p

I was more like asking how would one reconcile it with the fact that the Bible literally says it ain't so, and even offers a test to falsify that conclusion. I mean, sure, you'd look inside and be sure you're full of God's grace. But how would you have reconciled it with the Bible literally saying that if you've EVER sinned even a tiny little since your last getting that grace OR didn't quite love some neighbour, you haven't ever had it in the first place?

(Incidentally, speaking of Catholics, that at least used to be a major heresy too. Nobody could know if they have God's grace. No, seriously, that was one of the trick questions they asked of Joan d'Arc for example. Had she said that, yes, she can feel she's full of God's grace, they could have spared themselves a few days of trial and marched her to the stake right there and then.)

Because Jesus Christ. That would have been my answer. Not "Because Christ died for my sins and I have accepted him." That never sounded right to me, although it works for many others. I just had this faith.

My family is Christian Scientist but only my grandparents went to church. My mom just liked the magic healing stuff. When I was 8, I was sent to a Lutheran School which had chapel every morning. There was a painting of Christ among the lambs that I would stare at the whole time. I was eventually overwhelmed by that Jesus, demanded to be baptized, and became a Christian.

The feeling of faith was reliving that initial flood of belief which may have been nothing more than a childhood crush, or the remnants of some hypnotic state brought on by early morning droning and a particularly sappy painting.
 
what i mean is that did anyone experienced or seen what priests and ministers call exorcisms, and did any thing different happen,did any of these even you whitnessed have anything strange happen in them
 
what i mean is that did anyone experienced or seen what priests and ministers call exorcisms, and did any thing different happen,did any of these even you whitnessed have anything strange happen in them

I think you're posting in the wrong thread; we're talking about "being saved" in the sense of Protestant Christian salvation. I don't know of anyone personally (nor myself) that knows anything about exorcisms being performed (outside of movies); but there may be someone else on the forums. Try searching for previous threads, and create one if one doesn't exist on the topic.
 
so has anyone been so-called excorised before what actually happened did you guys feel anything

Yes, although not in the Catholic tradition.

I went to an in-church retreat weekend, and during that, a former self-described "white witch" who had become Pentecostal (my denomination at the time), prayed over me to "get the demon of smoking out of" me.

I submitted to the prayer, because I was still religious and wanted help, but not because I believed I was possessed. I stopped believing in demon possession in my teens. However, if I did not submit to this "praying the devil out of you," I would not be allowed to discuss my smoking in any other context, and I really did want help with it. Also, if I rejected the praying, I'd have been asked to leave the retreat. If that happened, my husband at the time probably would have taken me home and hit me for embarrassing him in church. He'd have used his bible, and by then I was pretty tired of being smacked in the head with it.

What did I feel? Nothing. Not a thing at all.

She prayed a long time, and when she was done, I remember I sighed in relief that she was finished. She must have kept me there for 20 minutes or more.

She said, "Praise god, it worked, you are free!"

I said, "What? How do you know?"

"You sighed. That was the demonic spirit leaving your body."

"Um, no," I said quietly. "I sighed because I was tired." (I didn't tell her what I was tired of, which was her interminable praying)

"You just think that's what it was. It was actually the demon leaving you."

"Uh...okay. Thanks."

I then went outside and lit up a smoke.




(OOPS, sorry, didn't mean to encourage an OT post, my bad.)
 
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I think you're posting in the wrong thread; we're talking about "being saved" in the sense of Protestant Christian salvation. I don't know of anyone personally (nor myself) that knows anything about exorcisms being performed (outside of movies); but there may be someone else on the forums. Try searching for previous threads, and create one if one doesn't exist on the topic.

ok but at any rate arent there thousands of different types of protestants and they all seem to differ on how to go to heaven......so who is right:confused:
 
well tell that to them

Why should I? It's none of my business what stupid things people want to believe, until and unless their beliefs interfere with my life.

That people believe in heaven doesn't interfere with my life.

Besides, what makes you think my telling them this will have any effect?
 
ok but at any rate arent there thousands of different types of protestants and they all seem to differ on how to go to heaven......so who is right:confused:

To the best of my knowledge, what you said is not true.

Who is right? The JREF offers a million dollar prize to anyone that can prove supernatural claims. Based upon the evidence available right now, I'd guess none of them are right; but like slingblade said, what do I care as long as they aren't trying to push it on me (or anyone else that doesn't want it).
 

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