So, Brits. What ya gonna do?

Bruce said:
A mere diversion from my usual obsessions ...
Click to expand...
Oh, we know that.
But you ran away from this thread before, mumbling something incoherent about "JREF politics....a year ago", which made absolutely no sense at all, and then you whined elsewhere about mean, mean people actually demanding you have something like an actual point. Didn't seem like you would ever come back.

So let's get to that: do you have any point at all? hellloooo----ooo?
 
As a matter of fact, I do have a general response for obnoxious twits like you, Gurdur.
 

Attachments

  • gudur.JPG
    gudur.JPG
    7.5 KB · Views: 3
I'm surprised that the lack of air cover and proximity of any larger vessels are not deemed to be significant. I agree that once in that situation (within a certain range of Iranian vessels) there was nothing, in the circumstances, that the boat crew could have done.

Instead "weaknesses in intelligence, in communications, in doctrine, and in training", as well as a "widespread failure of situational awareness" are blamed.

In other words, we didn't know who was out there, what level of threat they presented, nor how close they might be able to get to the search crews. Reading between the lines, although the "availability" of the helicopter is not criticised (after all, it was available, just not overhead when needed), management of air assets is also a failure.

The failure of multiple people along the chain of command to take responsibility and veto a decision by someone to allow crewmembers to meet with the press, is also addressed in the report of the report (the full thing being classified).

IOW, the Iranians showed us up for what we were - incompetent and ineffective.
 
Cainkane1 said:
North Korean gunboats took a number of american personnel prisoner and held them for quite awhile as I recall. America had to eat crow to get them back. Incidentally I misspelled Mayaquez.
Click to expand...

Launching an invasion of the island where it was believed they were held (though they had been recently moved) followed by release of them 4 hours later doesn't sound like "eating crow".
 
Cainkane1 said:
North Korean gunboats took a number of american personnel prisoner and held them for quite awhile as I recall. America had to eat crow to get them back. Incidentally I misspelled Mayaquez.
Click to expand...
That is more than wrong, it is out to lunch.

The SS Mayaguez taken by the Cambodians (Khmer Rouge) in May of my junior year in High School (1975) and held for four days. President Ford ordered a hasty raid to get it back. (That raid is the subject of some controversy.)

The USS Pueblo was taken by the North Koreans in 1968, in January, and the crew released a few days before Christmas, 1968.

Puttin' the E in JREF.

DR
 
Big Les said:
I'm surprised that the lack of air cover and proximity of any larger vessels are not deemed to be significant. I agree that once in that situation (within a certain range of Iranian vessels) there was nothing, in the circumstances, that the boat crew could have done.
IOW, the Iranians showed us up for what we were - incompetent and ineffective.
Click to expand...
Les, a couple of points. Other than one's adversary taking advantage of a small error here and there being common . . .

There is not sufficient air power in the Gulf to provide air cover for every single squad/platoon sized action each day. (Why the ships helicopter was not providing eyes on is something I am not privy to. They don't fly 24/7. They can't. Not manned to do that. )

The patrolling they were doing was nigh on the border. With borders comes airspace. The airspace over where they were operating is a bit ticklish to fly into without violating Iranian airspace, which is not something anyone in the CENTCOM AOR is interested in doing, at least anyone in the coalition.

Plenty of folks who were involved can be cited to uncover how the Iranians took advantage of an opportunity to pull a stunt.

I do not find the UK "ineffective" due to this. Not the Royal Navy, no sir. One "aw, sheet" does not wipe out a lot of "well done, lads."

Of note: a similar incident occurred in 2004, in waters very much on that nebulous maritime borderline, and some Brits held, and paraded in front of cameras, for a few days before they were returned to the UK. That was during Khatami's day as President, before Mahmoud the Mouth.

It got quite a bit of international coverage.

DR
 
Last edited:
Iran just made you look stupid and weak. What are you going to do about it? Sanctions? Denouncement? Appeasement? Dare I say........war?
Click to expand...
The UN and American will save you....again.
 
I take your points DR (especially re the limited endurance of the helamacopter), but aside from my last sentence, I'm only summing up our own authorities findings. They suggest that not enough was known about the Iranians that were in the immediate area of operations. By all means hit the Rum Ration forums for some fish-head/matelot opinions on the debacle.

I will readily admit that the (mis)handling of the PR situation afterward was a far worse (ie far more easily preventable) cockup than the actual pants-down catch and made the whole thing look much worse than it was. The actual conduct of the those two individuals was hardly in the best traditions either.
 
Big Les said:
I take your points DR (especially re the limited endurance of the helamacopter), but aside from my last sentence, I'm only summing up our own authorities findings. They suggest that not enough was known about the Iranians that were in the immediate area of operations. By all means hit the Rum Ration forums for some fish-head/matelot opinions on the debacle.

I will readily admit that the (mis)handling of the PR situation afterward was a far worse (ie far more easily preventable) cockup than the actual pants-down catch and made the whole thing look much worse than it was. The actual conduct of the those two individuals was hardly in the best traditions either.
Click to expand...

*nods*

I forgot to thank you for the link, good reading for all that it could not cite all of the DoD and Commons info considered, classification and all that.

Thanks also for the Rum Ration link. Quite a crew there.

DR
 
ServiceSoon said:
The UN and American will save you....again.
Click to expand...

Is that the American that runs away from the Italian police?

Or is that the American that imprisons people in concentration camps without telling them why they have been arrested?

Or is that the American that tortures people?

Or is that the American that kills UK soldiers because he can't be bothered to establish that the UK forces are actually carrying the proper signals and then runs away from telling the grieving relatives what actually happened?

What a guy! We are so lucky to have that guy for our bestest ever 'friend'.
 
Darth Rotor said:
*nods*

I forgot to thank you for the link, good reading for all that it could not cite all of the DoD and Commons info considered, classification and all that.

Thanks also for the Rum Ration link. Quite a crew there.

DR
Click to expand...

No problem DR. I have a great deal of respect for servicepeople of all stripes. Hell, I look after their old stuff for a living ;) If you fancy a peek into the other branches (though you no doubt have met plenty in your time), there's also arrse.co.uk and pprune.org.uk (military aircrew section) for the British army and air arms respectively.
 
Big Les said:
OK guys. It's some time later. You wanted to know what we were going to do about this incident? What we always do, of course! Write a stiff letter...

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmdfence/181/181.pdf
Click to expand...

:eek:

Not a stiff letter

spanish5.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom