Slavery in the Bible

Hi cnorman18,

Maybe I missed the point, but in defending the Bible's stance on slavery by quoting verses that tell slave owners how to treat their slaves, aren't you actually confirming that the Bible condones slavery?

Anyway, surely slavery is either right or wrong, isn't it? (I'm reminded of the "slightly pregnant" comment here)

So it really doesn't matter if one slave is better off that another - they're still both slaves.

To many, the fact that the Bible condones slavery means that so does God - after all, isn't it his holy book? if the Bible had condemned the practice unequivocally, maybe that might have made a difference?

Therefore it's been an easy way to justify slavery - God says it's OK, so who can argue against that?

YBW
 
I agree. We don't get "moral updates" from god. If God was only going to spell out the rules once or twice, why not say: "Slavery is wrong, period." And how do we know it is wrong? Maybe God actually thinks slavery with regulations (as spelled out in the Bible) is perfectly fine. After all, he is depicted as an extremely violent entity. But how would we know? Which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally? Which parts are outdated and no longer apply? Isn't that a subjective call?

The Bible used to be used to defend slavery in the U.S. What changed? Were we interpreting scripture wrong back then, but correctly now? How would we know?

Also (if this hasn't already been pointed out), the Bible has been used to argue for and against civil rights, women's rights, drinking alcohol, and on and on. The argument can be made that homosexuality is a sin, and others interpret the same passages differently. Let's say for the sake of argument that scripture clearly calls homosexuality a sin. Does that only apply to the ancient world, like slavery? IOW, it applied two or three thousand years ago, but not now? How would we know?

Was God OK with regulated slavery back then, but now he's completely against it?

Actually what I was trying to say, but more eloquently put :)

THank you :)
 
I've not seen much to change my original, rather sarcastic, post in this thread.

It did occur to me that god's believers are also slaves to their master.

Sad that he's such a terrible slave-master and fails to give clear instructions.

Also as a slave-master he is not very good at looking after his slaves.
  • He does not provide food, shelter, health care or a pension scheme.
  • All requests from his slaves are totally ignored.
  • Newborns are automatically assumed to be his slaves.
  • His slaves must work unpaid and uncared for for their entire lives and forever after they die.
  • The only paid work and welfare for his slaves is provided by other slaves and freemen/women.
  • Transgressions (not clearly defined) are punished with eternal torture.
  • The male slave is considered to be superior to the female slave.
No wonder the bible is pro-slavery.

Slaves "are deprived of personal freedom and compelled to perform labour or services".

The definition has rather a close fit.

Should they change "Jesus Saves" to "Jesus' Slaves"?

;)
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Either the bible is an inerrant and accurate source that is the word of God, or it isn't. If it isn't, then there really is little reason to take it seriously outside of a piece of quasi-historical mostly-fictional literature.

If it's the accurate source of the Word of God, as many believers claim, then it promotes actions that would, today, be seen as immoral.

Is this a false dichotomy? It depends on what you're trying to prove. To people that claim that people that worship the Bible are "moral" people, I'd challenge that claim. If you follow all of the passages, and don't just pick and choose what appeals to the morality you already have, then you would be led to commit immoral acts.

Is there anything of worth to the Bible? Sure. But there's equally things of worth in the Qu'Ran, in Hindu manuscripts, in Buddhist writings, and in the sayings of Aesop and Confucius. However, what is of worth is not an inerrant source that says how to worship and how to act morally.

I'd challenge that I'm far more moral than any one character in the Bible, honestly. Yes, even Jesus. For instance, if I had the power to "miraculous" heal people, I wouldn't just happen to heal anyone I happened to come across. If I had the power of God, we'd see peace on earth, snap.
 
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For instance, if I had the power to "miraculous" heal people, I wouldn't just happen to heal anyone I happened to come across.

And Jesus wasn't too happy about having to do that if you take the bible to be an accurate accounting.
 
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I really wish I didn't have to keep going over the same ideas in almost every thread. It's as if I've never posted here before.

You keep confusing Jews with Christians. We are not the same. Our attitudes and approaches to the Bible, its authority, and how it is to be used are entirely different.

We do NOT believe that God gave us an infallible heavenly rulebook that is complete, comprehensive, eternal and unchanging so we'll never have to think again. That IS the attitude of some Christians. I won't defend that, because I think it's wrong.

You can complain all day that we should expect to have a book like that, that God should have given us all the answers up front, that we should be brain-dead zombies like all believers are supposed to be (and most of whom inarguably are), but we just don't feel obligated to follow that program.

Jews believe that we have to keep working out the meaning of the Torah in every generation. We are not only allowed to do that, we are commanded to do that. We don't ever get to sit back and say, "Well, we have all the answers now. Just follow this list of simple rules and everything will be fine." we believe that God gave us brains, and He expects us to use them and not just depend on Him for our answers.

Of course the rules change. How could they not, over a timespan of almost 4,000 years? What has not changed in that time? The understanding of what a "family" or a "nation" is, what "ownership" and "property" means, the relationships between men and women, between parents and children, between employers and workers, between nation and nation--all of these are radically different now from what they were three or four millenia back.

What has not changed are the principles of justice, compassion, equality, and liberty. Those are what we claim to get from the Torah; the specific applications will inevitably change in every generation, and it is our job, not God's, to figure those out, and those answers will change as the times do. My own thinking has changed on some of these matters since coming to this forum, and that's how it should be. humans are made to LEARN, not remain static and unmoved.

But why didn't God just make absolutely everything really clear from the first? Why aren't there passages that explain global warming, the ethics of driving an SUV, and for that matter, electricity, evolution, quantum mechanics, and everything we've yet to discover in the future? Granted, those old guys in Bronze Age Mesopotamia wouldn't have known what an "SUV" or a "quark" is, but God is God; He could have made them write it down anyway, right?

If He had done that, what would the point of human intelligence be?

When I was in math class, the teacher knew all the answers; why didn't he just tell us what they were, instead of making us work them all out? In Judaism, God expects us to grow up and think for ourselves.

So why don't we just dump God and the Torah and figure it all out from scratch, then? Well, the math class did have a textbook, and the teacher didn't just leave the room, either--even though most of the work was done at home. You have to have somewhere to start; some generally applicable laws, maybe a few example problems, and then a whole bunch of stuff that you have to try to make sense of. Then you have to go outside the classroom and apply what you've learned.

And sometimes, you have to make corrections. I know I felt that I was really beginning to understand algebra when I felt confident in pointing out an error in the textbook.

Analogies can only take us so far. Unlike math class, in Judaism, God Himself is barred from the deliberations about the meaning and intent of the Torah. I've posted the story elsewhere: during a debate on Jewish law, a voice from Heaven weighs in with a definitive opinion--and the rabbis rebuke God and decide the other way. "You gave us the authority to decide these things; now butt out."

Have we gotten it wrong sometimes? Without a doubt. But the class is never over. Go to any synagogue in the world, and you'll see that it's still in session. The debate on homosexuality is reaching a consensus as we speak, and we've decided to overrule the Torah. We don't know why it reads as it does, or even what situation or practice in the ancient world it was addressing; but we're certain that in today's world, that prohibition is simply wrong.

What's wrong with that? You complain that we get all of our values from an ancient book, and then you complain when we don't, because that's what you think religion is supposed to do. What kind of sense does that make?

Are you getting this yet? The Bible, for Jews, isn't the final word on any issue, the end of debate, the place where humans stop thinking and bow in submission. It's the first word, the beginning of debate, the place where humans start thinking.

Does the Bible condone slavery? On the surface, it apparently does; but there are some pretty strong hints that it's wrong. How do you explain the prohibition on returning escaped slaves to their owners? If slavery is perfectly OK, that's about as counterintuitive as it gets. Cyrus the Great got the idea before we did; good for him. We think a lot of Cyrus for other reasons, too. Why wasn't slavery condemned outright? Beats me. Maybe the world wasn't ready; maybe it never explicitly occurred to the men who wrote down the oral traditions or the men who edited the final version. And maybe there's another reason.

I'd be willing to guess this: A thousand years from now, there will be something about today's society that people will find shocking and repugnant, and obviously so. Maybe it will be the private ownership of cars, as I mentioned in my OP; maybe it will be private property, period. Maybe it will be something else that's not occurred to anyone yet. In any case, mores and moral standards will change again. And there will be those among my people that will find reasons in the Torah that those changes are correct and right (on private property, it won't be hard; there is plenty in there about caring for the destitute. There is no word for "charity" in Hebrew. The applicable word is "tzedakah," which means "justice.").

And if there are still boards like this one, there will be people asking, "Why didn't God just outlaw [x] in the first place?"

Maybe He wants us to figure out that it's wrong, and why.

Which is most important in your own life? The lessons you were just taught and accepted blindly--or the ones you figured out for yourself?

I know that everyone here expects people who believe in God to be simple-minded children that hand over their brains to some holy man or holy book and just do what they're told. "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it," is a common Christian catchphrase. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint, but Jews don't ride that bus.

I've said it many times, and I'm sure I'll have to say it many more; I don't defend "religion" in general, and I'm tired of people assuming that I do. Judaism has very little in common with other faiths, other that that word "God."
And again, as I said earlier on this very thread: the word only. Our very concept of what that word means is different, let alone our views on the Bible.

I'm sorry if what I've been saying here upsets anyone's nice, neat little worldview-- you know, the one that says everyone who believes in God is an idiot on the level of a child who believes in Santa Claus, that all religious people have kissed their brains goodbye in favor of unreflective acceptance of whatever they're told, and that religion is always and everywhere a burden and a hindrance to human intelligence and development.

That view is overwhelmingly correct, but it does not apply to Jews, and we ought not be blamed for it along with the rest. Make some room in your worldview for that. If you don't, you are essentially promoting a falsehood.

We are on the same side here, in everything but that one word--and I can prove it. Whenever Christians or Muslims decide to do something stupid, vicious and brutal, who do they do it to first?
 
cnorman said:
You keep confusing Jews with Christians.
Nope, wrong.

I was explaining the reason for pointing out immoral things in the bible. The primary reason is as a counterpoint to those that do accept the Bible as an accurate moral code.

If you don't believe that, then guess what? The argument doesn't apply to you.

cnorman said:
You complain that we get all of our values from an ancient book, and then you complain when we don't, because that's what you think religion is supposed to do. What kind of sense does that make?
Tell that to all of the people who claim that atheists are immoral because they don't follow the Bible, why don'tcha?
 
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So why don't we just dump God and the Torah and figure it all out from scratch, then? Well, the math class did have a textbook, and the teacher didn't just leave the room, either--even though most of the work was done at home. You have to have somewhere to start; some generally applicable laws, maybe a few example problems, and then a whole bunch of stuff that you have to try to make sense of....

Which is most important in your own life? The lessons you were just taught and accepted blindly--or the ones you figured out for yourself?
Why do accept blindly the starting point is the Torah ? Why not the NT or why not just work it our for yourself from scratch ?
 
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Tell that to all of the people who claim that atheists are immoral because they don't follow the Bible, why don'tcha?

I do.

You're confusing Jews with Christians again.

Have you ever seen me, or any Jew, condemn atheists as immoral? Haven't you seen me point out that that is as illogical and wrong as lumping Jews in with Pentecostals?

Because some people, other than myself, and mostly the Christians I complain about as much as you, indulge in gross overgeneralization and bigotry, that makes it okay for it to be applied to us?

Nice. By that standard, it's okay for anyone to do anything to anybody, because somebody else did it first.
 
What has not changed are the principles of justice, compassion, equality, and liberty.

Given the thread topic,
Surely the definition of liberty has changed. Equality too.
In fact, I don't see the continuity of "justice" and "compassion".

Maybe it's the importance of those elements that changes. And so the laws change.

Does the Bible condone slavery? On the surface, it apparently does; but there are some pretty strong hints that it's wrong. How do you explain the prohibition on returning escaped slaves to their owners? If slavery is perfectly OK, that's about as counterintuitive as it gets. Cyrus the Great got the idea before we did; good for him. We think a lot of Cyrus for other reasons, too. Why wasn't slavery condemned outright? Beats me. Maybe the world wasn't ready; maybe it never explicitly occurred to the men who wrote down the oral traditions or the men who edited the final version. And maybe there's another reason.

There have been examples other than Cyrus the Great. I liked the Aesop one. Some slaves seemed to like the cost of slavery. Not all would volunteer for it.

And what was the summary of the Torah supposed to be? That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor -- the rest is commentary.

I don't think the example of slavery fits with that. Unless slave owners were required to accept their own slavery. And so it must say in the Torah: "If you (a free man and enslaver of the free) are yourself enslaved... Then accept it as quid pro quo."
 
I do.

You're confusing Jews with Christians again.

Have you ever seen me, or any Jew, condemn atheists as immoral? Haven't you seen me point out that that is as illogical and wrong as lumping Jews in with Pentecostals?

Because some people, other than myself, and mostly the Christians I complain about as much as you, indulge in gross overgeneralization and bigotry, that makes it okay for it to be applied to us?

Nice. By that standard, it's okay for anyone to do anything to anybody, because somebody else did it first.

I think it's just rebellion against the Jewish New World Order coming out!


;)


Actually, I think your taking personal what's not actually pointed at you. Many of the recent comments, as I read them, are aimed generally at those that DO consider the bible the infallible word of the invisible man in the sky.

I know you have explained your views clear enough for me to grasp them, and if I get it, everyone should! I'm the runt of the litter around here. Normally a day late and a dollar short for whatever's going on :(



:)
 
cnorman said:
You're confusing Jews with Christians again.
You're confusing talking about a certain group of people to talking about you, or all people, like you so cunningly (and delusionally) accuse me of doing.

I never talked about Jews, nor have I talked about you. You seem to have missed the point of my entire post. Well done. It takes someone with a kindergarten-level reading comprehension to achieve such a feat, or someone that's so completely delusional that everything is an attack against them. Congratulations. You've impressed even me on your (in)capabilities.

Because some people, other than myself, and mostly the Christians I complain about as much as you, indulge in gross overgeneralization and bigotry, that makes it okay for it to be applied to us?

Nice. By that standard, it's okay for anyone to do anything to anybody, because somebody else did it first.
Nice. By your standard, I can totally misread someone's post and act like a victim no matter what they say.

While you continue to do so, I see no reason to assume that this conversation can be carried further. I'm willing to be proven wrong, though.

First, tell me something: where the **** did I ever talk about you, or Jews? Quote me. Please. Tell me EXACTLY where I said something that deserved your sarcastic and insulting post above?

Because, you know what? I hate, more than anything, people that purposefully misrepresent what I say. It's happened to me before, and everytime it's happened, I've put the person on ignore. Because, you know, I take offense at people that are dishonest to "win an argument."
 
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I think it's just rebellion against the Jewish New World Order coming out!

;)

As long as nobody goes to internationaljewishconspiracy.com, we'll be OK--then they'll know everything...

Oops.

;)

Actually, I think your taking personal what's not actually pointed at you. Many of the recent comments, as I read them, are aimed generally at those that DO consider the bible the infallible word of the invisible man in the sky.

I can understand that. It's just that, as I've said before, it's hard to have an intelligent conversation when people keep talking past me to somebody else.

I know you have explained your views clear enough for me to grasp them, and if I get it, everyone should! I'm the runt of the litter around here. Normally a day late and a dollar short for whatever's going on :(

:)

Now that is nonsense. I've been debating you. I know.

Now for a few other replies:

Why don't I just toss the Torah and start from scratch? Why do I "blindly" accept the Torah as a starting point?

Well, considering our attitude toward it, I don't know that "blindly" is the right word here; but never mind. When you sign up for a math class, why do you blindly accept the textbook as the starting point for your studies? Why don't you just toss it and start from scratch?

The comparison is apt. Much more than other religions, Ana like a math class, Judaism is a communal enterprise. Jews don't believe that any one person has either the capacity or the experience to interpret the Book. Torah study has always had one uncompromising rule: it is group study. You don't get to go off by yourself with a case of Jack Daniel's or a bag of Colombian and think up really brilliant and original interpretations. That's where you get people like David Koresh and Joseph Smith. When you become a Jew, you learn that being a Jew is much more than assenting to a set of beliefs (as I've said elsewhere, those are pretty much optional anyway), or even a set of traditions and practices; you're becoming part of a people, with their heritage, their history, and their peculiarities. The Torah is part of that heritage.

You might say this is the class I signed up for. I didn't do it blindly--they make you study the syllabus and do a lot of outside reading before you get in.

As for the Golden Rule (Jewish edition) being contrary to slavery--well, of course it is. That was one of the clues that slavery is wrong, just like the prohibition on returning escaped slaves.

Here's a key principle: In Judaism, unlike, say, Christianity and Islam, God is not the boss and we his slaves. We are partners. That's what "covenant" means, and it's not just a figure of speech. God is the senior Partner, of course--but the people have the controlling interest and make all the decisions now. All the decisions. That's why we argue so much. Judaism is like one long, never-ending stockholders' meeting.
 
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You're confusing talking about a certain group of people to talking about you, or all people, like you so cunningly (and delusionally) accuse me of doing.

I never talked about Jews, nor have I talked about you. You seem to have missed the point of my entire post. Well done. It takes someone with a kindergarten-level reading comprehension to achieve such a feat, or someone that's so completely delusional that everything is an attack against them. Congratulations. You've impressed even me on your (in)capabilities.


Nice. By your standard, I can totally misread someone's post and act like a victim no matter what they say.

While you continue to do so, I see no reason to assume that this conversation can be carried further. I'm willing to be proven wrong, though.

First, tell me something: where the **** did I ever talk about you, or Jews? Quote me. Please. Tell me EXACTLY where I said something that deserved your sarcastic and insulting post above?

Because, you know what? I hate, more than anything, people that purposefully misrepresent what I say. It's happened to me before, and everytime it's happened, I've put the person on ignore. Because, you know, I take offense at people that are dishonest to "win an argument."

I reread your post, and you are completely, totally, 100% right. I was doing exactly what I was complaining about--entirely missing what you actually said and assuming that you were saying something else because I've heard it so often before.

I apologize. As usual around here, I learn more than I teach. Stings a bit to realize one is being a jerk, but it's better than not knowing it.

I an truly sorry. I've been at this thread since 6 AM, and I think I'm getting a little punchy.

Again, I apologize, and sincerely.
 
I reread your post, and you are completely, totally, 100% right. I was doing exactly what I was complaining about--entirely missing what you actually said and assuming that you were saying something else because I've heard it so often before.

I apologize. As usual around here, I learn more than I teach. Stings a bit to realize one is being a jerk, but it's better than not knowing it.

I an truly sorry. I've been at this thread since 6 AM, and I think I'm getting a little punchy.

Again, I apologize, and sincerely.

Forgiven. Just look before you leap. ;)

I apologize for being harsh, just that I dislike when people misrepresent what I say.

To continue to what I was saying, like I said, if the argument has no bearing on your personal position, then the argument is not really directed at you. That's my explanation for the whole discussion about slavery from the Old Testament.

And, like I said before, I see the Old Testament as no more interesting than any book by any religion, honestly. I consider them all just as likely to be true. A lot of the "miracles" from the Old Testament are claimed, with just as much evidence, to occur in almost every religious text I know of. So, your sarcasm earlier in the thread that we should "discard the Bible altogether"... well, quite frankly, I wouldn't say that.

But use it as a moral guide? I can't agree with that. Use it as a factual guide? Evidence first, Bible second, would be my motto; I'd be just as skeptical as any psychic that claimed to be able to see the dead, talk with the dead, or move objects with their mind.

If you want to delve into it personally, I respect that. But just as much as I respect someone, say, delving into Beowulf.
 
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Forgiven. Just look before you leap. ;)

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I will, but I expect to fall on my face again eventually. I'm quite good at it. Just ask my ex-wife.

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I apologize for being harsh, just that I dislike when people misrepresent what I say.

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No apology necessary. I totally had it coming.

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To continue to what I was saying, like I said, if the argument has no bearing on your personal position, then the argument is not really directed at you. That's my explanation for the whole discussion about slavery from the Old Testament.

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Fair enough.

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And, like I said before, I see the Old Testament as no more interesting than any book by any religion, honestly. I consider them all just as likely to be true. A lot of the "miracles" from the Old Testament are claimed, with just as much evidence, to occur in almost every religious text I know of. So, your sarcasm earlier in the thread that we should "discard the Bible altogether"... well, quite frankly, I wouldn't say that.

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Well, the "miracles" don't interest me much (except Charlton Heston parting the Red Sea. That one was really cool). But I see your point.

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But use it as a moral guide? I can't agree with that.

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Not the Torah itself; the traditional interpretation of it. The book by itself is useless as a moral guide or anything else, except maybe as an example of early Semitic literature.

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Use it as a factual guide? Evidence first, Bible second, would be my motto; I'd be just as skeptical as any psychic that claimed to be able to see the dead, talk with the dead, or move objects with their mind.

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Exactly right. As I said, the "miracles" are regarded more as teaching stories today. I don't know how far back you'd have to go to find Jews who read the Torah literally--Genesis was held to be allegory by the 1st century CE at the latest.

Well, okay, you can probably find some Chasids who do. They're kind of like Amish Jews, though. Everything is frozen at about 1810.

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If you want to delve into it personally, I respect that. But just as much as I respect someone, say, delving into Beowulf.

Like I said, it's more about the tradition than the book by itself. That's a whole different world.

Speaking of Beowulf, does that explain the spelling of your screenname?

(Mine is dull--it's just my name.)
 
Quite true; but since the overwhelming bulk of the ethical teaching in the Bible is clearly aimed at establishing positive moral standards of compassion, justice and liberty, it occurs to me that it is those who diligently search its pages and work so very hard to find evil there might more fairly be accused of doing the "cherry-picking."


Pssst! We don't work very hard to find loathable examples of morality by God or God's peoples.

That's the point.
 
...And so it must say in the Torah: "If you (a free man and enslaver of the free) are yourself enslaved... Then accept it as quid pro quo."

Maybe Epictetus was Jewish:

Epictetus said:
What you shun enduring yourself, attempt not to impose on others. You shun slavery -- beware of enslaving others! If you can endure to do that, one would think you had been once upon a time a slave yourself. For Vice has nothing in common with virtue, nor Freedom with slavery.
- The Golden Sayings - XLI

;)
 
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